Poll: Should Frags be nerfed again?
Don't Nerf Frags at all
Nerf APS Frags
Nerf all Frags
Nerf Frags REALLY HARD
[Show Results]
 
Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 4 Votes - 2 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
2018-01-11, 06:07 AM
Post: #1
APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
So I was testing one of my ships in the sandbox mode (not coincidentally, a Perforator was involved), and I had a re-realisation.

APS FRAG IS STILL OVERPOWERED AS HELL AND MAKES THE GAME NOT FUN AS A RESULT.

Here is why, in more detail:

They Deal With Shields Too Well.
The realisation point is when I was observing my ship's shields, and a frag shell exploded on a strength 5 shield and every single fragment whistled straight through and shredded an armored turret. The update that changed how fragmentation damage scales with the cone angle only means that now instead of armour-shredding beams of frags issuing forth from shells, you get a new nightmare instead : a spiky blanket of frags enveloping your whole craft, peeling it like an onion regardless of how well armored or shielded it is. As per the developer notes way back in 1.957:
'Inertial fuses now allow fragments to explode on the far side of the shield'
This needs to change. We have usable disruption warheads now, we don't need frags for anti-shield work.

Actually, They Deal With Everything Too Well.
So if shields aren't an infallible defense, what then?
Armour? Frags still damage things they bounce off, even heavy armour.
Sloped armour? Inertial fused frags laugh at that.
Speed? Timed-fused frags, ironically the only job that they are supposed to do well.
Being underwater, well shielded, and well armoured? Not if the shells have supercaptivation bases (I'm looking at you, Paddlegunner, you little bastard.)
The only thing that is really foolproof is warp-drives, and only because that works against all kinetic weapons.

They Are So Much Better Than Anything Else It's Boring.
Frag warheads are just objectively more powerful than any other APS warhead in the game, at any caliber. That's not balanced, not even close: in order to be balanced a weapon needs to have both strengths and weaknesses, like how these shells are right now:
HE: Good against most things, less effective against good armour and good shield placement.
HEAT: Good against heavy armour and shields, not good against spaced armour
HESH: Murder against armoured targets, not good against shields.
Disruption: Good against shields, renders shell less effective against non-shielded targets.
Kinetic: Doom to unshielded craft, hard-countered by shields.

Compare that to frag, which can be described thusly.
Frag: Kills everything, the Mary Sue of warheads.

It's gotten to the point that when I see a new craft (user made or faction), I lose respect for it (sometimes unfairly) the instant I see that it has APS frag guns. Which isn't right at all, I should be squealing with delight or soiling myself in respectful terror every time I meet a new craft in From the Depths, not nihilistically resigning myself to the game lagging as my craft die to a million armour-and-shield-bypassing cuts, AGAIN.

I hardly know how to code or how hard it would be to implement the changes I'm about to suggest, but I really do think that the entire mechanic of APS Frag (and possibly frag in general) should be changed. Here are some suggestions:

Option 1: Take frag out of the game entirely (not actually ideal).
Option 2: Make a special exception for APS fragments so they can't damage metal and heavy armour, thus making armour a viable defense and relegating frag to its real-life role of dealing with small, fast, soft targets.
Option 3: Get rid of the frags-popping-out-on-the-opposite-side-of-the-shield thing (this DEFINITELY needs to happen, the percentage chance for projectile penetration is plenty enough opportunity for frags).

If going for option number two, there is the possibility of extending that change to missile and CRAM fragments (which we'll call Option 2.5). This would fully cement frag as equalling doom for light/unarmored targets while just being an annoyance for real armour, just like in real-life warfare. For missiles, you could (finally) add HEAT and HESH components to deal with armour, and CRAMS have penetration-fuse set-ups already viable to crack hard targets.

That concludes my long, frag-APS-White-Flayer-driven rant. I'll add a poll with this post so you can say whether you think frags should be nerfed, left alone, or nerfed HARD.

Thank you to the community and the developers, I hope this post was helpful/agreeable/funny/non-irritating/soothing-for-the-fragment-cuts. Smile
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-11, 09:18 AM
Post: #2
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
I am not a shield overuser, but 2 layers of reflective shields, the first makes the frag go off, the second reflects the frags.
My solution is armor: wood on metal on metal on heavy - the armour stacking gives the wood high armor, and quick'n'cheap to repair.
Just don't assume something is overpowered because you can't defend against it yet. Wink

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

[Image: 6yFiDvF.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-11, 10:47 AM
Post: #3
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
You are making some basic mistakes, the points that stand out the most:
  • HE isn't countered by strong armor. It's actually the damage type that loses the least power(decreases with the square root while kinetic/impact are linear).
  • If inertial frags do noticeable damage through shields you simply set the shields up wrong.

360° frags are a bit too strong, but that can be solved by changing the angle multiplier range from 0.66-3 to something like 0.66-2.
Frags not working against a single shield would make them practically pointless with current mechanics, DEFINITELY shouldn't happen.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-11, 09:10 PM
Post: #4
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
(2018-01-11 10:47 AM)draba Wrote:  You are making some basic mistakes, the points that stand out the most:
  • HE isn't countered by strong armor. It's actually the damage type that loses the least power(decreases with the square root while kinetic/impact are linear).
  • If inertial frags do noticeable damage through shields you simply set the shields up wrong.

360° frags are a bit too strong, but that can be solved by changing the angle multiplier range from 0.66-3 to something like 0.66-2.
Frags not working against a single shield would make them practically pointless with current mechanics, DEFINITELY shouldn't happen.

HE isn't countered by strong armour, true, but I didn't say it was. I said it was 'less effective' against strong armour and good shield placement. I say that because armoured and shielded ships that can weather a blizzard of HE shells still get taken apart by itty bitty frag guns when logically (real-life logic mind you) they shouldn't.
And no, I do have overlapping, medium strength shields that cover the parts of my ships that I want to protect, but frags don't care: the many, many frag-spamming craft in the game get right through it, where the more balanced shell-types would take longer. My whole point here is that frag is still too good at everything and renders other APS types superfluous as a result. Perhaps my suggestions aren't the best ideas, but you can't argue with the fact that frag is overpowered compared to other shell types, in direct contrast to it's specialized use in real life.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-11, 09:31 PM (This post was last modified: 2018-01-11 09:31 PM by BorderWise.)
Post: #5
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
(2018-01-11 09:18 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  I am not a shield overuser, but 2 layers of reflective shields, the first makes the frag go off, the second reflects the frags.
My solution is armor: wood on metal on metal on heavy - the armour stacking gives the wood high armor, and quick'n'cheap to repair.
Just don't assume something is overpowered because you can't defend against it yet. Wink

I'm 'assuming' it's overpowered because every APS gun I have ever tested has magically turned into a death-spitting machine the instant you rig it up with frag shells. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best with shields (mostly because I don't like them, but that's definitely my own biased preferences) but the fact that APS frag (even after the more recent nerfs to it) does a better job of dealing raw damage than literally ANY OTHER KIND OF SHELL IN EACH AND EVERY SITUATION is a balance issue that I would like to see fixed.
The fact so many godly class designs in the game default to using frag guns is another damning piece of evidence: it actually does get boring when you run into a new, exciting ship only to find out it's relying on the same overpowered nonsense as most of the ones you ran into before. -_-
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-11, 09:40 PM
Post: #6
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
(2018-01-11 09:10 PM)BorderWise Wrote:  Perhaps my suggestions aren't the best ideas, but you can't argue with the fact that frag is overpowered compared to other shell types, in direct contrast to it's specialized use in real life.

I absolutely can, because it's not a fact Smile Against really strong armor and/or good shields HE is much better.
The saving grace of frag is linear stacking + doing ridiculous damage against softer things/after penetration.
The usual recommendation, enter a tournament with frag only APS and see how far it gets you against an entry with proper shields.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-12, 12:05 AM (This post was last modified: 2018-01-12 12:05 AM by Redstorm.)
Post: #7
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
Perhaps post the blueprint of the craft of yours that is getting chewed up?

[Image: 1DuzMq6.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-12, 09:14 AM
Post: #8
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
(2018-01-12 12:05 AM)Redstorm Wrote:  Perhaps post the blueprint of the craft of yours that is getting chewed up?

Yup, here ya go. And before you even mention it, yes I know the shield placement isn't completely optimal and it doesn't have full shield coverage.


Attached File(s)
.blueprint  Naga.blueprint (Size: 518.07 KB / Downloads: 0)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-12, 09:21 AM
Post: #9
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
(2018-01-11 09:40 PM)draba Wrote:  
(2018-01-11 09:10 PM)BorderWise Wrote:  Perhaps my suggestions aren't the best ideas, but you can't argue with the fact that frag is overpowered compared to other shell types, in direct contrast to it's specialized use in real life.

I absolutely can, because it's not a fact Smile Against really strong armor and/or good shields HE is much better.
The saving grace of frag is linear stacking + doing ridiculous damage against softer things/after penetration.
The usual recommendation, enter a tournament with frag only APS and see how far it gets you against an entry with proper shields.

In the tournaments I've seen, anything with frag guns tends to do much better than it otherwise would, and my own experiments with APS (particularly at lower gauges) show that frag is powerful across the whole range of shell sizes, something that can't be said of any other kind of warhead.
My recommendation for you (if you haven't done something like this already) is to build 25mm, 200mm and 500mm APS guns and time how long it takes each shell type kill a Marauder, Kingstead, Bulwark, Thyr and Warlord. My money will be on the frag gun every time.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
2018-01-12, 10:08 AM
Post: #10
RE: APS Frag Must Die (Slightly)
I think I know who voted for nerfing frag really hard Wink
(It wasn't me, no sarcasm or joke there)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)