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Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
2017-12-22, 03:38 PM
Post: #1
Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
Fuel strage block is too expensive!
It is valid cost in standard refinement rate but you dont have to launch a fully loaded tanker and you may be able to refine in better rate.

so, I suggest fuel strage which is cost 1 by empty at first.
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2017-12-22, 03:48 PM
Post: #2
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
It has been suggessted in at least 2 threads, 4 update threads, and the request-o-matic. I don't think it needs another thread. You can try mentioning it directly to Gladyon or in the 2.1 update thread, where it will be less clutter and more likely to be seen.

(2017-04-20 06:54 PM)Hikari Wrote:  I made something that has an impact of a type 1a supernova. The projectile already breaks laws of physics by going way past the speed of light.

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2017-12-22, 05:32 PM
Post: #3
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
That feature is available in the ProtecTech Industries mod.
You can choose how much the fuel storage blocks contain when you place them (there's a proportional reduction of the cost of the block).

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to put it into FtD.
Because newbies may have some more trouble because of it.

And it's more on the balance side of things. I mean, it won't really change the gameplay or improve the QoL.
So, I think it will have to wait.
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2018-01-31, 11:49 PM (This post was last modified: 2018-01-31 11:55 PM by Psert.)
Post: #4
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
(2017-12-22 05:32 PM)Gladyon Wrote:  That feature is available in the ProtecTech Industries mod.
You can choose how much the fuel storage blocks contain when you place them (there's a proportional reduction of the cost of the block).

I'm not sure it would be a good idea to put it into FtD.
Because newbies may have some more trouble because of it.

And it's more on the balance side of things. I mean, it won't really change the gameplay or improve the QoL.
So, I think it will have to wait.

I have to disagree on that one, especially when it comes to the newbie-part:

The full fueltanks are so very expensive that it actively discourages building ships with a high energy demand at the start of the game. Not because of fuel engines, but simply because of the 400 ressources required for a single 4000L fuel-beam.

400 for one decent single fuel tank is A LOT for a starting vehicle, when your budget at the start is only ~ 10k tops. If you want a craft that can run for more than 10min. under combat conditions, meaning with shields and ammo processors on and at top speed, you need to either have a very energy-efficient propulsion method (dediblades) or be willing to put something like 3000 ressources (a third of your budget) aside just for fuel tanks while skimping on armour or other important aspects of the vehicle.

The high fuel tank cost thereby severly increases the difficulty of the start of the campaign and limits your options in my opinion. Giving us the ability to build empty fuel tanks cheaply would reduce that "fuel-efficiency"-pressure and allow for far more viable designs, thus making the game newbie-friendlier.

But there are other aspects to the whole "full fuel tanks only" debacle, even after the start:
It makes refineries utterly useless.

In my playthrough, my super efficient refinery in my home base just sits there deactivated while my ships can comfortably "live off the land" by killing enemies and siphoning their fuel after the battle.

And finally, even though I sort of made that point already, the price of the full fuel tanks are just utterly ridiculous when compared to other things on a vehicle:

My newest addition to the fleet, a big battleship, will cost around 400k. It is heavily armed, shielded, has LAMS, etc., you name it.
It needs a lot of energy when all the systems are running, and so in order to have it functioning for a reasonable amount of time, it obviously needs a lot of fuel tanks. Wanna know what those cost?

100k.

1/4 of the cost of that ships is just the FULL FUEL TANKS.

The costs for those tanks are almost on par with the costs for the armour or the weapons systems! Meanwhile, the engine(s) that burns all that fuel, the real technical marvel that brings the whole ship to life, are dead cheap, probably only about 10k to build those. It simply doesn't make any sense!


So please, please, can we also have empty fuel tanks along side the full fuel tanks in the build menue? I don't need a slider or anything to specify how much fuel I want on any given vehicle, just the ability to build both cheap empty fuel tanks as wells as full fuel tanks would make me a happy bunny... Smile
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2018-02-01, 10:32 AM
Post: #5
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
(2018-01-31 11:49 PM)Psert Wrote:  I have to disagree on that one, especially when it comes to the newbie-part:
-snip-

I discourage building ships with high energy demand, too. Big Grin

With a starting vehicle I doubt you need a lot of energy.
Propulsion eats 50-200, max one low level shield consumes 40-200, and no energy weapons.
A 400-500 energy production is more than enough for a stating unit.

Of course a big battleship with energy weapons, layer-shielded, LAMS, etc., shouldn't be cheap in resources and upkeep too. Invicibility should have it's cost.

Those godly level enemy vessels, like the White Flayer Perforator are so overpowered, because they are dumb NPCs, and cannot pilot, use terrain, build in combat like we clever players do. Wink

I am currently experimenting with a unit against white flayers, which has only armour, no lams, and sparse weak locational shielding for protection in my videos (seek Brilliant skies 03, last big battle).
You can even download and examine the concept if you please.

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

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2018-02-01, 11:08 AM
Post: #6
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
(2018-01-31 11:49 PM)Psert Wrote:  I have to disagree on that one, especially when it comes to the newbie-part

I agree on that part, empty tanks would be great to have in the campaign.
Experienced people know that fuel is important enough to pay even the current up-front cost, but newbies might be put off by the price tag on tanks.
That's not the only reason, but probably makes the "I have no shields or LAMS and am getting stomped on expert" problems more common.

Also agreed on the makes refineries pointless part.
Capturing fuel could be entirely removed, but that's one of the main reasons not to simply switch everything to turbines so might be a bad idea.

(2018-02-01 10:32 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  I discourage building ships with high energy demand, too. Big Grin

With a starting vehicle I doubt you need a lot of energy.
Propulsion eats 50-200, max one low level shield consumes 40-200, and no energy weapons.
A 400-500 energy production is more than enough for a stating unit.

It's not enough, designs with low power output are just objectively bad in every possible way.
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2018-02-01, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 2018-02-01 02:10 PM by Psert.)
Post: #7
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
To elaborate the problem newbies might face with this game further:

Currently a new player has a choice between 3 different modes of energy generation:

RTGs, steam or fuel engines. RTGs and fuel engines will most likely be considered as "too expensive" for a new player, because he/she will likely blow the very limited budget with the costs for his/her armor and weapon systems already.

So steam seems like a viable alternative, but then again that directly burns ressources and might put new players in a tight spot later on, when they actually need a decent amount of savings to build something bigger against the WF or the OW.
You set them up to fail, basically.

So "punishing" new players with the high cost for full fuel tanks greatly increases the high learning curve that this game already has. In my opinion, a new player should be challenged in the beginning to design a craft with decent armor and weaponry, which is one of the most fun part anyway, and is difficult enough on its own.

But forcing them to also think about being fuel efficient should come later, when they can build bigger things that can actually ruin their economy when powered by a very wasteful engine-setup. One step at a time.
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2018-02-02, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 2018-02-02 10:25 AM by Normal69.)
Post: #8
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
(2018-02-01 11:08 AM)draba Wrote:  It's not enough, designs with low power output are just objectively bad in every possible way.

Yes I see, in your opinion (not objectively) all of my units are bad then. Big Grin

My beginning units were (and you can proof them from my videos, and the attached blueprints):
-a really small (15 block long) fortress with one 4m RTG
-three different kinds of undersea bunkers with 2*2m RTGs, two of them doesn't using any energy

They are helping other units in the area with ammo, fuel reserves, and electrical power.

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

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2018-02-02, 12:14 PM
Post: #9
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
If "fuel tank (full at first)" and "fuel tank (empty at first)" make beginners troubles,
how trouble they about engine core part which is hard to find front side, and bloken twin cannon, and ACB distance which is even NOT L1 distance, and and...
It would be a kind of easier thing.

I do not complain about fuel cost it self.
If empty tank and refineries break balance, it's a issue of refinery.
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2018-02-02, 07:21 PM
Post: #10
RE: Empty Fuel Strage(s)?
No problem is not giving player choice I want fueled ship right now for that much money or I will get my ship refueled in 10minutes but it will cost me 25%or whatever it is in given case less
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