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Reduce Ammo in Clips
2017-11-21, 10:50 PM
Post: #21
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
Final test involved 4 frag warheads setup with cone angles of 20, 15, 10 and 5 degrees. This time the 5m turret piece survived. The rounds were facing down inside the turret well. This did not affect the floor anymore than the rest of the turret well. So orientation of the rounds does not matter either, which from a nerdy perspective is a little sad.

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2017-11-22, 12:28 AM
Post: #22
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
(2017-11-21 10:50 PM)Ramble6 Wrote:  Final test involved 4 frag warheads setup with cone angles of 20, 15, 10 and 5 degrees. This time the 5m turret piece survived. The rounds were facing down inside the turret well. This did not affect the floor anymore than the rest of the turret well. So orientation of the rounds does not matter either, which from a nerdy perspective is a little sad.

Yep, in the meantime checked and 2m HA is enough to contain frags.
Seems like there is a fkton of despawns going on, a single 4m loader with 1 clip, 3 shells and 9 total warheads do ~20K damage, ~18K without the clip/loader/gauges/turret base.
54 shells of the same type only do ~100K, expected more from 15M nominal damage even with 6 AP.
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2017-11-22, 06:08 AM
Post: #23
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
Hmm... Really appreciate the tests. Seems I can go back to building with clips. (high gauge clipless breaks down due to the complexity without super noodle loaders).

Your conclusions made me realize that I haven't used clipped loaders since before the 2.0 changes. So basically yeah it seems the armor changes have greatly increased the ability of armor to contain a gun pop.

Neat. Cheers again for the science.
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2017-11-22, 10:25 AM
Post: #24
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
(2017-11-22 06:08 AM)SynthTwo Wrote:  Hmm... Really appreciate the tests. Seems I can go back to building with clips. (high gauge clipless breaks down due to the complexity without super noodle loaders).

Your conclusions made me realize that I haven't used clipped loaders since before the 2.0 changes. So basically yeah it seems the armor changes have greatly increased the ability of armor to contain a gun pop.

Neat. Cheers again for the science.

Yeah the armor needed isn't that extreme on the high end, but I still think it's really impractical to use clips/contain the turret.
3m metal wasn't enough for high-velocity railgun turrets, and those are half chargers with only 1 warhead/lots of GP for each 8m loader.
Just drop clips and make defenses/outer armor good enough to survive until the guns are empty.

Clipless doesn't break down, it's better for all volumes at 4m and above(probably 3 too, comes up often so really should check).
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2017-11-22, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-11-22 05:15 PM by SynthTwo.)
Post: #25
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
I completely agree that clipless is superior in the midrange of gauge. When you can abuse autoloader load bonuses you can really pack in the autoloaders and have a better fire rate than all alternatives.


Where clipless breaks down though, is at the extremes. Small tiny turrets with 1m loaders seem to be better because that 1.5 innate load penalty hurts when you have 1m of autoloader and 2m of ammo intakes. That's a lot of wasted volume.

The other area clipless breaks down is when you're trying to dump 500mm shells at your opponent. The reload times get so long that the only real way to get a good fire rate is to get your load multiplier as low as possible (such as connecting six clips to every loader). If you don't have a 0.2 load bonus youre still waiting thirty seconds per loader. If you use protectech guns the load times get stupid so 0.1 more load time bonus equates to ten seconds faster load.


Another tertiary point is that your clipless loaders start empty and as such you immediately need to pump materials to drive those ammo processors which can get pretty expensive.


A question for you guys specifically... Do you use CRAMs? Id like to find a use for them where APS doesn't outperform.
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2017-11-22, 09:09 PM
Post: #26
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
Went back and checked 360° frags vs HE to make sure I'm not a crazy person.
Dropping a single 500mm frag/HE into a box of:
- 2m HA: 2.6K damage for frag, 3.4K for HE
- 1 HA/1 metal: 4.1K for both
- 2m metal: 6.5K / 5.5K

Based on combat test overestimated frag a bit against pure armor, need to get below ~55 for it to shine.
In practice the conclusion is the same though, use HP/HE against REALLY heavy armor and frag for everything else.

(2017-11-22 04:58 PM)SynthTwo Wrote:  The other area clipless breaks down is when you're trying to dump 500mm shells at your opponent. The reload times get so long that the only real way to get a good fire rate is to get your load multiplier as low as possible (such as connecting six clips to every loader). If you don't have a 0.2 load bonus youre still waiting thirty seconds per loader. If you use protectech guns the load times get stupid so 0.1 more load time bonus equates to ten seconds faster load.

You are right about short shells, but I think you misunderstood how loaders/clips work.

An example, 500mm cannons:
- 1 with 100x4m loaders
- 1 with 20x4m loaders, 4 clips each

The 100 loaders will have 100^0.25 = 3.16 complexity penalty, 1.5 x 3.16 x 0.5 = 2.37 loading modifier.
The 20 loaders with 4 clips: 20^0.25 = 2.11 complexity penalty, 0.5 x 2.11 x 0.5 = 0.53 loading modifier.

20 loaders can shoot 20 times and then need X time until the next cycle of 20.
100 loaders can instantly shoot 100 times and then need 4.74x time for the next cycle of 100.
Clipless is just better in every possible way for firerate(though you probably want to be close to the breakpoints where 1-2 inputs are fully utilised).
Main drawback is the ammo gulp at the start, and a smaller downside is that losing ammo boxes starves them earlier.

Note that you always get 5 times as many loaders as with 4 clips, so the complexity penalty ratio is a constant 5^0.25 = 1.49, no matter how many loaders you stack.
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2017-11-22, 10:01 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-11-22 10:08 PM by SynthTwo.)
Post: #27
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
When I was thinking of my clipped setup for 500mm shells, I should clarify and say thst I envisioned 6 clips each loader which only works in a few setups for a few lengths with load times well into one or two minutes long.

6 clips/loader can get a 3m loader to ~0.2 load bonus. Seven clipless loaders your load bonus climbs super high. I don't have game access atm so I can't give you exact setups sadly.

I know that clipless can load and fire immediately but I always try and build my guns to maintain a steady fire rate and optimize cooling and loading counts for that specific steady fire rate, so that's what I base my math around.

Seven loaders have a complexity of 1.62 which when combined with the clipless loader penalty is 2.43 and now we have taken our 80 second long reload time to over three minutes.

Whereas 0.2 multiplier gives a 16 second reload on one loader.

Volatility is comparable due to the fact you only fit one or two sausages per clip. Also to maintain this fire rate you need ten ammo inputs.

This is relevant especially for protectech enhanced aps where you are firing ship deleting school busses with 140 sec load times.
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2017-11-22, 10:30 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-11-22 10:30 PM by draba.)
Post: #28
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
(2017-11-22 10:01 PM)SynthTwo Wrote:  ...

You can't get a bonus from all 6 connection point on a loader.
Max reduction for 5 clips is 0.45, 3m has 0.58 modifier so final time on 1 loader is 0.261.
6 loaders have 6^0.25 = 1.57x complexity penalty.
That's 0.58 x 1.57 x 1.5 = 0.9 final modifier.

You get 1 shot every X time or 6 shots every 3.45X time, clipless is no contest better at both burst and sustained fire.
The concrete number of loaders doesn't matter, the complexity ratios are the same.
That said, at 3m input counts can be significant if you are far from the breakpoints.
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2017-11-22, 10:54 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-11-22 10:56 PM by SynthTwo.)
Post: #29
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
Rotate the clips so that they all connect, you can fit six on and they will all count towards your load bonus.

This is why it only really works for specific loader lengths because it's pretty impossible to Tetris 4m ones but 3m work great.
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2017-11-22, 11:14 PM
Post: #30
RE: Reduce Ammo in Clips
(2017-11-22 10:54 PM)SynthTwo Wrote:  Rotate the clips so that they all connect, you can fit six on and they will all count towards your load bonus.

This is why it only really works for specific loader lengths because it's pretty impossible to Tetris 4m ones but 3m work great.

Forgot that gauges connect everywhere, my bad.
The rest still stands though, just even more skewed towards clipless.
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