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electronic warfare suites
2017-11-02, 03:28 PM
Post: #1
electronic warfare suites
I'm stoning on my antidepressants currently so I won' t try too go to in depth with hypothetic functions as I' ll just end up posting a garbled text wall.

But similar to modern ECM weaponry, dedicated systems could be used to put some more flavour into the whole detection system stuff. which currently is a little bit sec in my opinion.

So for example, lower tech analogue systems such as coincidence rangefinders and telescopes might be immune to electronic warfare.

but camera's, radar, sonar, and other digital systems could all have dedicated counters that cancel each other out, or rather throw of measurements to some extend.

Similarly, some holographic projectors, or false radar image creation could throw of vissualy or radar guided weapons. Also making your 'radar crossection' smaller perhaps?

of course, to balance this out and not turn it into a complete nuisance, it should be rather hard to make an effective ECM build except on somewhat dedicated support ships. For example, various systems could be very resource or power intensive, or require large complicated setups (holographic projectors).

Bottom line is, it would be really interesting to see something more happen with the detection system we have now. currently it' s just something you slap on and tweak a little. but I think there are many opportunities here for digging somewhat deeper and making it into a seperate branch of a viable combat strategy.

This would immediately also give us the option to go stealthy (At great cost) when we want to, no?

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2017-11-03, 02:57 AM
Post: #2
RE: electronic warfare suites
Yeah when I suggested detection stuff along these lines, it was with the idea in mind that power was key. Even for just the default detection stuff such as radar I had envisioned the idea that large radar panels could be made but would require a lot of power and would generate a lot of heat. Clearly we would never go deep into the X, C, etc band stuff or difference in mechanical scanned arrays, AESA and all that jazz.. but certainly could use more depth to it. The current pieces would be great for simple aircraft and small ships but it'd be great to have higher power stuff and ECM items as well for advanced designs/builds.

So perhaps besides the power you might also have to deal with the cooling as well otherwise the detection devices run into thermal throttling (similar to engine cylinders overheating.. but instead of blowing up they just go down in performance). So with enough of the ships hull being devoted to power and cooling you could have a great output of jamming signals and other ECM/ECCM equipment at the possible sacrifice of weapon space (unless you build huge frickin ships). And something besides using Sonar/Radar buoys as countermeasures would be nice.. I really wonder if it can be done to make flare and chaff blocks that reload slowly and then ripple fire when used. And not sure if the game would allow for us to have towed decoy systems and such.. might be tricky or impossible with the game engine.

Generally good idea and evolution of previous/older ideas... downside might be lack of interest from the devs in fleshing out the detection system further. On the other hand... decent group of modding experts that have pumped out some cool stuff that makes certain things more entertaining and tricky in the game.

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2017-11-07, 08:12 PM
Post: #3
RE: electronic warfare suites
I would like holographic projector to only be able to make ship using it present itself as bigger target so monitor looks like ex. battleship but not other way around so no monitor looking BSs.
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2017-11-08, 01:37 PM
Post: #4
RE: electronic warfare suites
(2017-11-07 08:12 PM)Fernir Wrote:  I would like holographic projector to only be able to make ship using it present itself as bigger target so monitor looks like ex. battleship but not other way around so no monitor looking BSs.

That would be very interesting actually, I didn't think of them that way.

Sort of, to throw of target prediction cards you mean?

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2017-11-08, 07:48 PM
Post: #5
RE: electronic warfare suites
Not what I thought about but will do.
I thought about situation like:
1 Battleship (fire power),
2 Destroyers (fire power, AA),
6 Monitors with holographic destroyer images to keep fire away from more valuable targets
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2017-11-13, 12:28 PM
Post: #6
RE: electronic warfare suites
can't support this one. The fundamental problem you get is this:

people will not be happy unless it lets them achieve A. perfect undetectablility B. significant undetectability.

you cannot balance what is basically invulnerability (can't shoot what you can't see, can't kill what you can't shoot) by making it cost or power intensive. Therefore you need some kind of counter ECM system and that puts you right back were you are, it becomes a required part of the ship because you can't fight without it, but when everyone has the system it has exactly 0 impact on the game.

This game was never designed to allow significant stealth and such features should not be added.

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2017-11-16, 11:13 AM
Post: #7
RE: electronic warfare suites
(2017-11-13 12:28 PM)Lincrono Wrote:  can't support this one. The fundamental problem you get is this:

people will not be happy unless it lets them achieve A. perfect undetectablility B. significant undetectability.

you cannot balance what is basically invulnerability (can't shoot what you can't see, can't kill what you can't shoot) by making it cost or power intensive. Therefore you need some kind of counter ECM system and that puts you right back were you are, it becomes a required part of the ship because you can't fight without it, but when everyone has the system it has exactly 0 impact on the game.

This game was never designed to allow significant stealth and such features should not be added.

Those are some fair points.
I mostly got the desire for this aspect of warfare from playing too much Jane's fleet command lately, and the intel warfare therein.

Still, suppose you make a curve for how the system works, that makes how well it functions not only a function of the extensives and power input of the system, but also of the size of the vessel? So that only smaller vehicles could achieve significantly smaller detection cross-sections with enough power?

still, while it interesting food for debate and speculation, I can agree with most points you listed.

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2017-11-16, 02:05 PM
Post: #8
RE: electronic warfare suites
(2017-11-16 11:13 AM)Carolus Magnus Wrote:  
(2017-11-13 12:28 PM)Lincrono Wrote:  can't support this one. The fundamental problem you get is this:

people will not be happy unless it lets them achieve A. perfect undetectablility B. significant undetectability.

you cannot balance what is basically invulnerability (can't shoot what you can't see, can't kill what you can't shoot) by making it cost or power intensive. Therefore you need some kind of counter ECM system and that puts you right back were you are, it becomes a required part of the ship because you can't fight without it, but when everyone has the system it has exactly 0 impact on the game.

This game was never designed to allow significant stealth and such features should not be added.

Those are some fair points.
I mostly got the desire for this aspect of warfare from playing too much Jane's fleet command lately, and the intel warfare therein.

Still, suppose you make a curve for how the system works, that makes how well it functions not only a function of the extensives and power input of the system, but also of the size of the vessel? So that only smaller vehicles could achieve significantly smaller detection cross-sections with enough power?

still, while it interesting food for debate and speculation, I can agree with most points you listed.

don't get me wrong, I love the concept and idea of stealth. However, as a soldier i have first hand experience with the intimate details of how greatly sensors, stealth, etc influences the battlefield. Things like thermal sights and night-vision are literal game-breakers if you have them and the enemy does not. Similarly, if you can figure out how to defeat radar you simply invalidate billions in defensive weaponry. Modern armies have invested so much in it precisely because it's awesome, but in a game? After a certain amount of domination the other guy has to have fun too.

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2017-11-17, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-11-17 09:42 AM by Normal69.)
Post: #9
RE: electronic warfare suites
In Ramble6's thread we thought up something along this line, his coolers also reducing/diverting infrared footprint. Other components like that could divert/lessen other detection footprints - not making you invisible, but a little blurry, altering what you can see in the detection tool.
A longtime idea, and a real thing is a chaff-component for missiles, just tin foil stripes exploding out, working like the already existing anti-IR component agains radar seekers.
Smoke cannons get all the visual detectors of the enemy, had my fun with enemies shooting drunkenly after getting a load of them. Big Grin

Also we are in the future, so we should aim for sci-fi realism. Wink

I think it's a good idea.

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2017-11-17, 02:59 PM
Post: #10
RE: electronic warfare suites
(2017-11-17 09:38 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  In Ramble6's thread we thought up something along this line, his coolers also reducing/diverting infrared footprint. Other components like that could divert/lessen other detection footprints - not making you invisible, but a little blurry, altering what you can see in the detection tool.
A longtime idea, and a real thing is a chaff-component for missiles, just tin foil stripes exploding out, working like the already existing anti-IR component agains radar seekers.
Smoke cannons get all the visual detectors of the enemy, had my fun with enemies shooting drunkenly after getting a load of them. Big Grin

Also we are in the future, so we should aim for sci-fi realism. Wink

I think it's a good idea.

Ps:
the best antidepressant for me is death - what can be more boring that that?
so before I can have fun and love, why not? it doesn't matter anyways
and I had my share of grief and woe recently
wishing well for you, be more than just a simple human

Smoke should be able to backfire if you use visual detection with IR being slightly more resistant.
I like "stealth" as way to throw your oponent of target instead of making you invisible.
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