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Gun mechanisms
2017-10-11, 09:16 PM
Post: #21
RE: Gun mechanisms
But a longer barrel simply does not improve accuracy--once the projectile is centered, usually only an issue with extremely short bores or high windages, the longer barre just does not help, and is more sensitive to droop (which modern tanks correct for) and whip, which I think is mostly unmanageable. Unless you are getting appreciably higher velocity out of the longer barrel, why not just drop both the extra length and the extra weight and cost of those compensations?

And there is a limit to how much velocity can benefit from longer barrels--at some point the tradeoff between weapon size and increased velocity gets rather unattractive.

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2017-10-12, 08:41 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-10-12 08:43 AM by Ixos.)
Post: #22
RE: Gun mechanisms
(2017-10-11 06:47 PM)Blothorn Wrote:  ("longer barrels are more accurate" is purely video game physics--IRL, longer barrels tend to be less accurate because they are hard to stiffen. The one notable exception is that a barrel short enough that the propellant does not burn entirely before the projectile leaves exacerbates fluctuations in muzzle velocity from burn rate variation between cartridges.)

Pretty sure longer barrels ( within reason ) improve accuracy in reality as well.

Longer barrel means higher exit velocity which means less flight time. This in turn means less time for wind and other effects like gravity to impact where the bullet hits. Yes gravity can be compensated for ( and was ) but it adds complexity, time and requires accurate measurements that were not commonly available prior to laser range-finding. More things that can go wrong = less accurate.

Why do you think sniper rifles have longer barrels then SMGs or pistols? If barrel length didn't impact accuracy then why doesn't top marksmen just use a SMG or pistol with a sniper scope?
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2017-10-12, 09:03 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-10-12 09:06 AM by Gladyon.)
Post: #23
RE: Gun mechanisms
(2017-10-12 08:41 AM)Ixos Wrote:  
(2017-10-11 06:47 PM)Blothorn Wrote:  ("longer barrels are more accurate" is purely video game physics--IRL, longer barrels tend to be less accurate because they are hard to stiffen. The one notable exception is that a barrel short enough that the propellant does not burn entirely before the projectile leaves exacerbates fluctuations in muzzle velocity from burn rate variation between cartridges.)

Pretty sure longer barrels ( within reason ) improve accuracy in reality as well.

Longer barrel means higher exit velocity which means less flight time. This in turn means less time for wind and other effects like gravity to impact where the bullet hits. Yes gravity can be compensated for ( and was ) but it adds complexity, time and requires accurate measurements that were not commonly available prior to laser range-finding. More things that can go wrong = less accurate.

Why do you think sniper rifles have longer barrels then SMGs or pistols? If barrel length didn't impact accuracy then why doesn't top marksmen just use a SMG or pistol with a sniper scope?

I'm afraid it's not that simple.
A too short barrel reduce precision, a too long one also.
It's like that for everything.
For example, drinking too much water will kill a human, while not drinking at all will also kill a human.

I don't know what is the 'ideal length' for a barrel, it's probably very complex to define it.
But about long barrels, one problem that comes in mind is the deformation of the barrel.
Each time you fire, the barrel is exposed to intense heat, and that will deform it.
So, each subsequent shot will use a barrel that is not perfectly straight, that will most certainly reduce its precision, if not make the shell explode in the barrel if the deformations are too extensive.

Also, a longer barrel will take more wind which can make the cannon move slightly, it will have more inertia so it may make the whole barrel shiver a bit when it stops moving.
Honestly, I'm not sure it's even possible to calculate the ideal length for a barrel.
But improving precision with length without any ill-effect seems bad (and it does look bad on ships!).
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2017-10-12, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-10-12 10:52 AM by moonruner.)
Post: #24
RE: Gun mechanisms
I think longer barrel worse accuracy, but I haven't intended to start about barrel length in real life.
I just wondered how is Nick planning about that issue.


Off-topic:
Unlimited longer barrel more accuracy so you can MAKE a 1,000,000,000 mm barrel HAND GUN, you can snipe Kim Jong un even if you were on a boat FLOATING near Yokosuka.
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2017-10-12, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-10-12 04:05 PM by Ixos.)
Post: #25
RE: Gun mechanisms
(2017-10-12 09:03 AM)Gladyon Wrote:  I'm afraid it's not that simple.
A too short barrel reduce precision, a too long one also.
It's like that for everything.
For example, drinking too much water will kill a human, while not drinking at all will also kill a human.

I don't know what is the 'ideal length' for a barrel, it's probably very complex to define it.
But about long barrels, one problem that comes in mind is the deformation of the barrel.
Each time you fire, the barrel is exposed to intense heat, and that will deform it.
So, each subsequent shot will use a barrel that is not perfectly straight, that will most certainly reduce its precision, if not make the shell explode in the barrel if the deformations are too extensive.

Also, a longer barrel will take more wind which can make the cannon move slightly, it will have more inertia so it may make the whole barrel shiver a bit when it stops moving.
Honestly, I'm not sure it's even possible to calculate the ideal length for a barrel.
But improving precision with length without any ill-effect seems bad (and it does look bad on ships!).

Which is why I included the "( within reason )" clarification...

Few of the FTD cannon barrels lengths are "within reason" and I totally agree they should be worse, not better.

I was talking about real barrel lengths:caliber ratios spanning from those of pistols (~10:1), to those of sniper rifles (~80:1), with most warships artillery and tanks ending up somewhere between.

( There are some real examples of extreme range artillery up to 160:1 like the Paris gun, but those can hardly count as practical considering barrel wear was so extreme they had the shells manufactured in gradually larger caliber to fit with the worn down barrel and they had to replace the barrel after firing just 65 rounds ).


In those ratios it is true that longer barrel = more accurate weapon.
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2017-10-12, 04:25 PM
Post: #26
RE: Gun mechanisms
(2017-10-12 03:58 PM)Ixos Wrote:  
(2017-10-12 09:03 AM)Gladyon Wrote:  I'm afraid it's not that simple.
A too short barrel reduce precision, a too long one also.
It's like that for everything.
For example, drinking too much water will kill a human, while not drinking at all will also kill a human.

I don't know what is the 'ideal length' for a barrel, it's probably very complex to define it.
But about long barrels, one problem that comes in mind is the deformation of the barrel.
Each time you fire, the barrel is exposed to intense heat, and that will deform it.
So, each subsequent shot will use a barrel that is not perfectly straight, that will most certainly reduce its precision, if not make the shell explode in the barrel if the deformations are too extensive.

Also, a longer barrel will take more wind which can make the cannon move slightly, it will have more inertia so it may make the whole barrel shiver a bit when it stops moving.
Honestly, I'm not sure it's even possible to calculate the ideal length for a barrel.
But improving precision with length without any ill-effect seems bad (and it does look bad on ships!).

Which is why I included the "( within reason )" clarification...

Few of the FTD cannon barrels lengths are "within reason" and I totally agree they should be worse, not better.

I was talking about real barrel lengths:caliber ratios spanning from those of pistols (~10:1), to those of sniper rifles (~80:1), with most warships artillery and tanks ending up somewhere between.

( There are some real examples of extreme range artillery up to 160:1 like the Paris gun, but those can hardly count as practical considering barrel wear was so extreme they had the shells manufactured in gradually larger caliber to fit with the worn down barrel and they had to replace the barrel after firing just 65 rounds ).


In those ratios it is true that longer barrel = more accurate weapon.

That's true but not true.
Since within reason, it is more accurate; false
Since more accurate, it is within reason; true

I heard UK tested 45 and 50 caliber 14in' guns before WW1 and 50 caliber was worse in accuracy (and life cycle),
but i'm not native so I couldn't get reliable source.
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2017-10-12, 04:28 PM
Post: #27
RE: Gun mechanisms
(2017-10-12 03:58 PM)Ixos Wrote:  
(2017-10-12 09:03 AM)Gladyon Wrote:  I'm afraid it's not that simple.
A too short barrel reduce precision, a too long one also.
It's like that for everything.
For example, drinking too much water will kill a human, while not drinking at all will also kill a human.

I don't know what is the 'ideal length' for a barrel, it's probably very complex to define it.
But about long barrels, one problem that comes in mind is the deformation of the barrel.
Each time you fire, the barrel is exposed to intense heat, and that will deform it.
So, each subsequent shot will use a barrel that is not perfectly straight, that will most certainly reduce its precision, if not make the shell explode in the barrel if the deformations are too extensive.

Also, a longer barrel will take more wind which can make the cannon move slightly, it will have more inertia so it may make the whole barrel shiver a bit when it stops moving.
Honestly, I'm not sure it's even possible to calculate the ideal length for a barrel.
But improving precision with length without any ill-effect seems bad (and it does look bad on ships!).

Which is why I included the "( within reason )" clarification...

Few of the FTD cannon barrels lengths are "within reason" and I totally agree they should be worse, not better.

I was talking about real barrel lengths:caliber ratios spanning from those of pistols (~10:1), to those of sniper rifles (~80:1), with most warships artillery and tanks ending up somewhere between.

( There are some real examples of extreme range artillery up to 160:1 like the Paris gun, but those can hardly count as practical considering barrel wear was so extreme they had the shells manufactured in gradually larger caliber to fit with the worn down barrel and they had to replace the barrel after firing just 65 rounds ).


In those ratios it is true that longer barrel = more accurate weapon.

I agree that usually longer barrels are better, but the thing is I have no idea where the limit is.
Is a gun firing 500mm shells better with a 10m long barrel, a 40m long barrel, a 100m long barrel?
There's a point where more length make it worse, it's just that I have no idea where it is.
So, why not set it where it becomes to be ugly? After all, it's a game, so aesthetics count.
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2017-10-12, 04:39 PM
Post: #28
RE: Gun mechanisms
Well, It makes it worse from the point where the gun starts flexing, if that is not possible (because fixed) then from the point where the pressure behind the shell doesn't accelerate it anymore, but decelerates it because friction to the gun barrel.

At some point it probably doesn't gain any accuracy bonus even while its now slowing down yet, as the length is enough to make it spin fast enough and be straight enough

There is always a weak-spot if you search Hard enough.

If you fire enough AP at that shield, at some point you're going to come through.

There is no "best" I wouldn't even say there is anything universally good, Good is subjective, I find everything bad even if it's in theory good against this or that.
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2017-10-12, 05:52 PM
Post: #29
RE: Gun mechanisms
(2017-10-12 08:41 AM)Ixos Wrote:  
(2017-10-11 06:47 PM)Blothorn Wrote:  ("longer barrels are more accurate" is purely video game physics--IRL, longer barrels tend to be less accurate because they are hard to stiffen. The one notable exception is that a barrel short enough that the propellant does not burn entirely before the projectile leaves exacerbates fluctuations in muzzle velocity from burn rate variation between cartridges.)

Pretty sure longer barrels ( within reason ) improve accuracy in reality as well.

Longer barrel means higher exit velocity which means less flight time. This in turn means less time for wind and other effects like gravity to impact where the bullet hits. Yes gravity can be compensated for ( and was ) but it adds complexity, time and requires accurate measurements that were not commonly available prior to laser range-finding. More things that can go wrong = less accurate.

Why do you think sniper rifles have longer barrels then SMGs or pistols? If barrel length didn't impact accuracy then why doesn't top marksmen just use a SMG or pistol with a sniper scope?

Accuracy (as FTD defines it) is just the consistency of the velocity of projectiles at the muzzle--I guess it is probably more accurately called "precision". Yes, higher velocity helps you get more shots on target, but that is a distinct factor (and one which FTD and FS already account for). I am not saying that long-range guns should have short barrels, but that optimizing hit rate is a tradeoff between velocity (favoring a long barrel) and precision (favoring a short barrel).

Small arms are also in a fairly unique position--stiffness is less of a problem at small sizes, but handling strongly favors short barrels. Thus, most small arms have barrels much shorter than pure ballistics suggests--often below the full powder burn length, where a longer barrel would increase both velocity and precision!

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2017-10-12, 07:55 PM
Post: #30
RE: Gun mechanisms
the books I have might shed some light on the optimal length of barrel for accuracy.

They certainly define the equations for optimum length for propellant burn- and those equations are used in FS. (i.e. muzzle velocity is calculated using those equations).

Reviewed FtD on steam yet? It's the #1 thing you can do to help FtD (and future games by Brilliant Skies!), so please take the time!
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