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[request]Ballistic missile
2017-09-11, 12:39 PM
Post: #11
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
(2017-09-11 12:10 PM)jcordeiro Wrote:  
(2017-09-11 03:58 AM)sundy123 Wrote:  I think the diving phase would need an APN component, else the missile without thrust wouldn't reliably hit the target

If you use:
I:SetLuaControlledMissileAimPoint(t,m,target.Position.x,target.Position.y,target​.Position.z)

This missiles will point to the target even if they are without fuel. I have seen this.
The real question is if they can turn just by aiming
They cannot turn just by aiming unless an APN module is equipped. Missiles with no fuel, no thrust-causing components, and no APN module are basically of no use.

(2017-09-11 12:27 PM)jcordeiro Wrote:  Another problem is the lack of thrust control in LUA api.
so we have 3 options:
1 - Dont cut thrust and hit the target with full thrust.
2 - Go in circles above the target until the fuel runs out then aim at target
3 - Make/install some mod that adds full thrust to LUA missile API

LUA can control the power output of a variable thruster. However, the feature is undocumented. It's used in some missile scripts here.
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2017-09-12, 06:27 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-12 09:19 AM by ZerothAngel.)
Post: #12
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
There might be a bug, or maybe it's working as intended... but I believe once a missile is detected, it remains detected permanently. So cutting thrust wouldn't really help -- unless (I suppose) it was done far enough away to avoid the initial detection.

Anyway, here's a simple variation. It was just a matter of creating the right profile for my "other" missile script (the one I actually use... that isn't posted to these forums Tongue)

The launched missiles will:
  1. Climb to 350 meters
  2. Approach within 200 meters (ground distance) of target and start terminal phase
  3. Once the missile velocity is within 3 degrees of aim point and missile range is within 300 meters, it will cut thrust.
Now I'm not too familiar with the new atmosphere/space borders in 2.0, so I didn't play with it much. But of course, the less dense the atmosphere, the more ineffective your fins, the larger your turn radius.

Also, minimum thrust of variable thrusters is 50, so short range thrusters are the way to go. This limits your thrust to some integer factor of 1000. Also, the maximum flight time is 20 seconds unless you stagger the thrusters (and add more fuel, of course).

Anyway, test platform attached, but I'm hoping someone will put out a better example. Max range is probably around 900 meters. Minimum range is 500. If you mess with the altitude, you can probably get the missiles to the edge of space. But it will also drastically increase the minimum range since the turn radius will be huge...

Edit: Removed attachment Tongue

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2017-09-12, 07:05 AM
Post: #13
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
(2017-09-12 06:27 AM)ZerothAngel Wrote:  There might be a bug, or maybe it's working as intended... but I believe once a missile is detected, it remains detected permanently. So cutting thrust wouldn't really help -- unless (I suppose) it was done far enough away to avoid the initial detection.

Anyway, here's a simple variation. It was just a matter of creating the right profile for my "other" missile script (the one I actually use... that isn't posted to these forums Tongue)

The launched missiles will:
  1. Climb to 350 meters
  2. Approach within 200 meters (ground distance) of target and start terminal phase
  3. Once the missile velocity is within 3 degrees of aim point and missile range is within 300 meters, it will cut thrust.
Now I'm not too familiar with the new atmosphere/space borders in 2.0, so I didn't play with it much. But of course, the less dense the atmosphere, the more ineffective your fins, the larger your turn radius.

Also, minimum thrust of variable thrusters is 50, so short range thrusters are the way to go. This limits your thrust to some integer factor of 1000. Also, the maximum flight time is 20 seconds unless you stagger the thrusters (and add more fuel, of course).

Anyway, test platform attached, but I'm hoping someone will put out a better example. Max range is probably around 900 meters. Minimum range is 500. If you mess with the altitude, you can probably get the missiles to the edge of space. But it will also drastically increase the minimum range since the turn radius will be huge...

Thanks for the time you put in, but space starts at 500m I believe, that is when the jets of planes become ineffective. Also minimum range is not an issue as long as it's over 1300m, i don't plan on getting anywhere near that close. Ballistic missiles are called that for a reason, they rely on gravity to pull them down onto the target so the manuverability of the missile isn't as important Smile
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2017-09-12, 08:36 AM
Post: #14
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
(2017-09-12 07:05 AM)sundy123 Wrote:  Thanks for the time you put in, but space starts at 500m I believe, that is when the jets of planes become ineffective. Also minimum range is not an issue as long as it's over 1300m, i don't plan on getting anywhere near that close. Ballistic missiles are called that for a reason, they rely on gravity to pull them down onto the target so the manuverability of the missile isn't as important Smile

Wasn't very much effort at all. And yeah, I realize it's not a ballistic solution at all. More like proof-of-concept for the whole "shutting off engines early will make missiles invisible to LAMS" belief.

Unlike APS & CRAM shells, missiles are subject to drag (linear & quadratic drag). So that complicates the math a tiny bit...

Also, space used to start at 500m. But what was this update about?

Anyway, you're probably better off faking it with a non-Lua solution using a seeker + APN on the way down. Or a hybrid solution where Lua shuts off the thrusters mid-flight (e.g. once reaching the apogee). But then again, you can only delay on-board guidance for like 4 seconds, so that probably won't work...

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2017-09-12, 08:40 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-12 08:45 AM by sundy123.)
Post: #15
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
(2017-09-12 08:36 AM)ZerothAngel Wrote:  
(2017-09-12 07:05 AM)sundy123 Wrote:  Thanks for the time you put in, but space starts at 500m I believe, that is when the jets of planes become ineffective. Also minimum range is not an issue as long as it's over 1300m, i don't plan on getting anywhere near that close. Ballistic missiles are called that for a reason, they rely on gravity to pull them down onto the target so the manuverability of the missile isn't as important Smile

Wasn't very much effort at all. And yeah, I realize it's not a ballistic solution at all. More like proof-of-concept for the whole "shutting off engines early will make missiles invisible to LAMS" belief.

Unlike APS & CRAM shells, missiles are subject to drag (linear & quadratic drag). So that complicates the math a tiny bit...

Also, space used to start at 500m. But what was this update about?

Anyway, you're probably better off faking it with a non-Lua solution using a seeker + APN on the way down. Or a hybrid solution where Lua shuts off the thrusters mid-flight (e.g. once reaching the apogee). But then again, you can only delay on-board guidance for like 4 seconds, so that probably won't work...

Yeah I have a non-lua prototype that can engage anything below 4000m, but because non-lua missiles lack the shut off engines with enemy range function, I set the distance where the missiles drop to be 1300m and used a IR jumping torpedo solution for final engagment, still invisible to lams but takes longer than i would like to reach the target
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2017-09-12, 09:09 AM
Post: #16
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
After I mentioned the hybrid thing, I went ahead and tried it out (added radar seeker + APN gain 10) on that platform I posted.

Then I adjusted the terminal range (where it shuts off the short range thruster) to 500 meters. (So it will unconditionally shut off at a ground distance of 500 meters from the target... far enough to avoid LAMS.)

Seems to work alright. But using Path View, I can tell the radar seeker and Lua guidance are both fighting for control.

A purpose-built script will probably work better, one that doesn't attempt to set the aim point at all. It's too bad you can't cancel/reset the Lua aim point.

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2017-09-13, 04:50 AM
Post: #17
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
Probably my last post on the subject. Tongue

Played around with it more, learned a few things, refined the script. (Decided to just keep using my existing missile script, because it's flexible enough.)

Things new to me:
  • A seeker head is very much necessary for the APN to function. APN + Lua guidance does not work at all.
  • Lua receiver not needed to control thrust or otherwise send changes to missile parts. But it is highly recommended because...
  • Setting the guidance delay to maximum allows the Lua guidance to properly alter the launch trajectory. Otherwise it struggles against the APN and the missile ends up flying off into space, never to return.
Attached is my testing platform. The missiles it fires will:
  1. Climb to 350 meters
  2. Turn toward the target
  3. At 650 meters ground distance, the thruster will cut off
  4. Then it glides the rest of the way in. It still seems to aim for ammo/AI, so the Lua guidance is still actually active.
Maybe someone else can refine the warhead mix because I found 30 degree frag to be pretty lackluster. It also behaves somewhat sanely even below the minimum distance (650 meters in this case).

Blah blah blah, it doesn't really go into space, nor is it truly ballistic. But it does accomplish the goal of avoiding munition warners.

Rocket-propelled glider bombs, basically... Smile

Profile config for my multiprofile/generalmissile script:
Code:
Config = {
       MinAltitude = 0,
       DetonationRange = nil,
       DetonationAngle = 30,
       LookAheadTime = 2,
       LookAheadResolution = 3,

       Phases = {
          {
             Distance = 650,
             Change = {
                When = { AltitudeGT = 100, },
                ThrustDuration = 0,
             },
          },
          {
             Distance = 50,
             AboveSeaLevel = true,
             MinElevation = 3,
             Altitude = 350,
             RelativeTo = 0,
          },
       },
    }


Attached File(s)
.blueprint  Ballistic Missile Test.blueprint (Size: 80.98 KB / Downloads: 5)

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2017-09-13, 06:02 AM
Post: #18
RE: [request]Ballistic missile
(2017-09-13 04:50 AM)ZerothAngel Wrote:  Probably my last post on the subject. Tongue

Played around with it more, learned a few things, refined the script. (Decided to just keep using my existing missile script, because it's flexible enough.)

Things new to me:
  • A seeker head is very much necessary for the APN to function. APN + Lua guidance does not work at all.
  • Lua receiver not needed to control thrust or otherwise send changes to missile parts. But it is highly recommended because...
  • Setting the guidance delay to maximum allows the Lua guidance to properly alter the launch trajectory. Otherwise it struggles against the APN and the missile ends up flying off into space, never to return.
Attached is my testing platform. The missiles it fires will:
  1. Climb to 350 meters
  2. Turn toward the target
  3. At 650 meters ground distance, the thruster will cut off
  4. Then it glides the rest of the way in. It still seems to aim for ammo/AI, so the Lua guidance is still actually active.
Maybe someone else can refine the warhead mix because I found 30 degree frag to be pretty lackluster. It also behaves somewhat sanely even below the minimum distance (650 meters in this case).

Blah blah blah, it doesn't really go into space, nor is it truly ballistic. But it does accomplish the goal of avoiding munition warners.

Rocket-propelled glider bombs, basically... Smile

Profile config for my multiprofile/generalmissile script:
Code:
Config = {
       MinAltitude = 0,
       DetonationRange = nil,
       DetonationAngle = 30,
       LookAheadTime = 2,
       LookAheadResolution = 3,

       Phases = {
          {
             Distance = 650,
             Change = {
                When = { AltitudeGT = 100, },
                ThrustDuration = 0,
             },
          },
          {
             Distance = 50,
             AboveSeaLevel = true,
             MinElevation = 3,
             Altitude = 350,
             RelativeTo = 0,
          },
       },
    }

Thanks for the work, what's the range?
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