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Various strange questions and answers about game mechanics
2017-09-05, 06:22 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-05 06:39 AM by Normal69.)
Post: #21
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
Definitely YES, I got agitated yesterday, and tried to plan units till midnight. Wink
First one is a building which resembles a hand sticking out of the seabed with laser claws and palm missiles. It's main function will be localised resource sluppy and repair - also it has fuel containers to provide backup in combat situation, filling them from peaceful time refineries when not in combat.
There is one little problem with the palm missiles - they are mixed torpedo-missiles, with laser guidance (the nose part, it's too morning for me), and I have problems with the guidance.

So the next question is: how would you detect airships from underwater?
I have sonar+laser tracker+two radar buoy missiles (one ascends slowly to the sky, other is bobbing on the surface).
First auto-balanced the detection (yes have enough processing), then played around with it, the aiming laser is more on spot now, but still giving tours to the missiles, which hit eventually after a few unnecessary loops.
The claw has no energy at all, because it doesn't needs it.
(the more optimistic thinking I refer to below is in parantheses here)
The missiles have neutral buoyancy, and seems to behave better when I've set the laser tracker nose part to follow my team's lasers, but that's that. Do you have any better ideas?

I consider repair bots on the same level as shields. They are not too quick, and need to have backup material containers too (at localised resources).
If NPC vessels got their repair drones removed, I can destroy anything eventually with undersea bunker missiles chipping away slowly their health.

In my case middle-strong armour, strange movement path, local small strong shields, and quick repair comes out balanced, definitely better than other FtD youtubers ammo-maker-huge-steam-engine-laser-shield units, which either lose power quick and sink, or consume 10000-20000 materials per battle.
(so if an enemy can hit my unit, if that is not a shielded part where they usually target, then the outer layer of destroyed wood with strenghtened AC by metal and a few HA behind it gets repaired cheaply)
Those guys definitely plan in the designer, which isn't my case. Smile
Consider my builds from a more optimistic viewpoint, please! Big Grin

English humor: Monty Python's Flying Circus. You don't say you don't know them? If that is the case look them up, please, worths it.

For example (attached) this is a remote radar / confusion drone, and I think it's cost efficient.


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.blueprint  Monk.blueprint (Size: 44.33 KB / Downloads: 1)

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

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2017-09-05, 07:28 AM
Post: #22
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
(2017-09-04 06:01 PM)Kaonicping Wrote:  (I'm English and I've never heard that phrase before, so while England tends to be less humour-lacking than, say, China, I don't know of any kind of UK-specific humour).

We do have either a particular brand of outlandish humour ( cf Goons, Pythons, 80's Comic Strip & associated stuff, Blackadder etc ) or an extremely dry wit ala Yes Minister - and also a particular line in black humour, which admittedly a lot of other people also do pretty well.

-- and now for something completely different.

Only way to initially detect airborne stuff from subs is radar bouys - I think you'd be better off using active radar seeking missiles ( or even IR ) than trying to designate for them, the thrusters are what gets detected rather than the guidance.

Most of us *aren't* youtubers & are more inclined to better resource management in campaigns ( which, admittedly, leads to more boring vessels & less likely to be YT favourites... ). I run localised resource, fairly minimal recovery from wrecks - not minimal, but only a couple of notches up - full godly & full respawn, so fairly low resource consumption - including repairs - is a bit of a necessity.

Poke my boat! pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - 6 ships made 2.0 aware. Regularily doing other things until the eye-strain post-processing can be disabled again; great game but not worth the literal headache.
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2017-09-05, 09:39 AM
Post: #23
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
Indeed, my good sir. Smile

When a unit is steamlined in it's function, that is beautiful for me. I do not care what should I do as a youtuber, just want to share my fun with the viewers.

Contrary to the opinions here, I take care of my resource management, and because my units share power, and do not use much of it, RTGs are surprisingly efficient. Sadly this is a recent (5-10 years) trend of humans to interpret information in the worst possibble way when they don't know their communicating partners.
Ingrained personality habits make this, and makes communication more tiresome than teaching crows to fly underwater. Big Grin
But I'll try for some fuel and engines, and compare the results over 1-2 months, then we will see.

Playing the game almost the same as you, except 10% wreck recovery, and trying to capture a lot of enemies.
Why? Supreme Commander Forged Alliance (and Total Annihilation). Smile
The new, second part of that game with it's oversimplifications made me mad, and I consider From the Depths as it's successor. <3

So please do not assume I have bad resource management, because I use limited RTGs (and huge amounts in gargantuan units I make for fun). Wink

Usually I use radar and sonar guidance, but after I've heard that propellers have a secondary function as ejectors, and about laser guided torps, just begin to search for ways to use multifunctional rods of flame and lightning - I will try for some more time, because I can be really mulish and boneheaded, and if I will be unsuccessful, I will split the missiles in the palm.

What components are uncompatible with laser designator tracker heads? I think APN and target leading part are bad for that.

Have fun, sleepy at work, students are using my systems, waiting to be home. Smile

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
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2017-09-05, 05:00 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-05 05:01 PM by Normal69.)
Post: #24
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
That's the good vibe I wished for, thanks. It was getting too pessimistic, like "you never can do" while I really did. Smile

So any detection for targeting airships from underwater besides radar buoys and detection subvehicles for a missile laser targeter? Sadly a part which sticks out aren't possibble because varied depths.

Help the hand please.

[Image: C0B7E18B0BEC7B391749476EA8D353F65E286727]

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

"Why did you reposted your question, there is a thread for that already"
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"Why didn't you made a new topic, instead necroing this one"
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2017-09-05, 05:18 PM
Post: #25
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  I consider repair bots on the same level as shields. They are not too quick, and need to have backup material containers too (at localised resources).
If NPC vessels got their repair drones removed, I can destroy anything eventually with undersea bunker missiles chipping away slowly their health.

Or jittery PACsubs
Or laser spacecraft
Or basically anything jittery with hitscan
Or basically anything space-y or sub-y

IMO battles should come to an eventual conclusion via chip damage if they don't end abruptly, especially given how long the campaign is already. Also keep in mind that otherwise you'd eventually lose since the AI can repair forever while you run out of materials, so it wouldn't be fair for campaign units to have repair bots. Also Majyst is very strict on reducing lag for campaign units, and repair bot pathfinding is a notable source of lag.

Shields are a bit unbalanced at the moment due to the way they negate damage rather than reducing it and even weak shields will happily reflect mighty shells. Nevertheless, there are ways of dealing with them (rail-assisted DCs), and hopefully they'll be improved in the future (But since they didn't get improved in 2.0 its looking a lot less hopeful now Undecided). Before 2.0 they weren't as bad and just centralised the meta around narrow-angle In-F/HEAT, but after those got nerfed shields became more cancerous, although I've found 180 degree In-F/HE to work well at high gauges. Also, Proxy-HESH is an option, but technically it's an exploit Tongue.

Repair bots aren't considered cheesy if you have a strict limit for materials used during the battle, although repair tentacles repair way too fast to not be OP.

(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  In my case middle-strong armour, strange movement path, local small strong shields, and quick repair comes out balanced, definitely better than other FtD youtubers ammo-maker-huge-steam-engine-laser-shield units, which either lose power quick and sink, or consume 10000-20000 materials per battle.
(so if an enemy can hit my unit, if that is not a shielded part where they usually target, then the outer layer of destroyed wood with strenghtened AC by metal and a few HA behind it gets repaired cheaply)
Those guys definitely plan in the designer, which isn't my case. Smile

Once again, dodging a la FTD's bad aiming algorithm and fast repairs are widely considered cheese, which is probably why the other FTD youtubers don't use them.

Also, AFAIK wood does not get considered for armour stacking, only LWA, stone, metal and HA.

(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  Contrary to the opinions here, I take care of my resource management, and because my units share power, and do not use much of it, RTGs are surprisingly efficient.


Once again, you are mixing up what makes your units successful:

Your units survive well because they dodge shots and repair fast, not because they lack laser shields or big steam engines and have cheap, fragile armour. Indeed if they abused acceleration affecting FTD's aiming algorithm and repaired fast, as well as using tough armour, big steam engines and laser shields, they would survive much better.

Your units conserve resources because they use cheap armour and little power generation, not because they share power (definitely a good idea, but it doesn't help with efficiency) and use RTGs. Indeed, if they used little power but produced it with fuel or steam engines, they would be more resource-efficient.

(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  Sadly this is a recent (5-10 years) trend of humans to interpret information in the worst possibble way when they don't know their communicating partners.
Ingrained personality habits make this, and makes communication more tiresome than teaching crows to fly underwater. Big Grin
But I'll try for some fuel and engines, and compare the results over 1-2 months, then we will see.

You sir, are a hypocrite Big Grin.

You've done exactly this; misinterpreting my comments as dismissive and demeaning of your units, which is not what they were intended to be. I tried to clear this up last time, but it didn't seem to get through, so let me be clear:

I am not trying to degrade you, your building skills or your units. Instead, I am suggesting major changes you could make that might improve them, namely replacing RTGs for more powerful and efficient fuel or steam engines, possibly reducing or removing repair tentacle cheese, and introducing LAMS and/or layered shields for defence. In doing so I must highlight the flaws of RTGs and cheese, which obviously extend to the units using them.

(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  Consider my builds from a more optimistic viewpoint, please! Big Grin

If I sound overly negative about your building style, it's because it reminds me of how I used to build (apart from the fact that my units were 50-400 times smaller Tongue): fragile armour, low power production and consumption (few shields and no LAMS), and (intentionally or otherwise) abusing acceleration to dodge enemy shots. Since moving away from that building style and more towards meta FBTs my units now would beat my old ones many times over and are less cheesy. So criticism (I know I would have taken it much worse than you have done) is the only way to improve.

(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  Playing the game almost the same as you, except 10% wreck recovery, and trying to capture a lot of enemies.

So please do not assume I have bad resource management, because I use limited RTGs (and huge amounts in gargantuan units I make for fun). Wink

That is kind of a crucial distinction in terms of resource income Tongue. To be fair, your Superbus is cheaper than my similarly-sized Kar Ik Vot 349 (because mine uses tons and tons of HA and laser components), but I don't think it will be as efficient for its material cost (something the Kar Ik Vot 349 certainly isn't; it's barely stronger than a Thyr for twice the price, and gets aimpoint cored by a Hypatos) as it presumably will be a lot more fragile (the Kar Ik Vot has something like metal/HA/HA/gap/HA/HA/HA around its AI), and seems to be less dakka-y (the Kar Ik Vot 349 is a bit like two Cezars strapped together Big Grin).

(2017-09-05 06:22 AM)Normal69 Wrote:  but after I've heard that propellers have a secondary function as ejectors, and about laser guided torps,

AFAIK torpedo propellers make the ejectors launch the missile further. Missile laser designators are good if your vehicle has good detection, and beam riders can't be blocked by smoke.

Also, I cannot help but notice this:

"Why did you reposted your question, there is a thread for that already"
versus
"Why didn't you made a new topic, instead necroing this one"
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If you have a question, I think it's best to make a new thread, since either the old thread already answers your question or is about something else. But when I complain about necroes it's not someone asking a question, it's someone digging up a years-old thread to give their unwanted opinion on someone's blueprint that has long since faded into the mists of time (look at the tlast byrant thread as a prime example).

(2017-07-10 02:50 AM)Resolas Wrote:  Forward broadside is the best broadside Tongue
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2017-09-05, 08:31 PM
Post: #26
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
Torpedos self-eject. The problem with designators is that you have to aim at the target, which is an issue underwater - it's hard enough shooting subs from above water, and you can use IR cameras for that. APN & TPG are useful for laser designators - all you're doing is lighting up the target, the missile is still making it's own way there. They're not any use for beamriders obviously, because the beam is providing guidance all the way.

"trying to capture a lot of enemies" - well, there's your piles of resource. The campaign is balanced around not capturing stuff ( adventure mode, I have no idea ) - so much so that Nick & Majyst would like capturing removed but we all complain too much every time it's brought up. I usually grab a DWG airship & the faction bases, but I try and make my own way around the map - occasionally it's just quicker to disable something by capture than shoot it, if it's just sitting there miserably doing nothing except soak up shells, and then I'll stick a round in it's skull. It's also pretty goddamn hard to capture in godly battles when you're trying to stay at range...

Poke my boat! pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - 6 ships made 2.0 aware. Regularily doing other things until the eye-strain post-processing can be disabled again; great game but not worth the literal headache.
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2017-09-05, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-05 09:25 PM by Normal69.)
Post: #27
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
Yes I am a subjective hipocrite - I take it as a praise after your clarification. (Y)

I've begun the fueled neter campaign, and even my units were small this time, the blockyness error striked me down again.
I will put up the video to the usual error-report thread (units (Conger and my Joybringer ork) just circling and not shooting eachother).

This brings up my next question:
There was no crash log - could you tell me where I can find the normal log I can zip and attach beside the video report?

Thanks, and have a good night for now. Sad

The thread is here: http://www.fromthedepthsgame.com/forum/s...?tid=29506

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

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2017-09-05, 09:18 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-05 09:34 PM by BioPhoenix.)
Post: #28
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
(2017-09-05 05:00 PM)Normal69 Wrote:  That's the good vibe I wished for, thanks. It was getting too pessimistic, like "you never can do" while I really did. Smile

So any detection for targeting airships from underwater besides radar buoys and detection subvehicles for a missile laser targeter? Sadly a part which sticks out aren't possibble because varied depths.

Help the hand please.
Retroreflection sensor works, but only if the airship has cameras. Radar doesn't mention on the block that it can't function underwater, but it can't.
You could also maybe try something with a laser rangefinder on a spinblock. Gimbal-style trackers including the laser rangefinder can make initial detections, but only in a 10-degree cone in front of them. Using a spinblock with appropriate spin settings and a speed of 10 or less could potentially allow a gimbal to search in a plane. I don't know if this is practical for your use but you wanted innovative and weird ideas, so there you go.
The wireless snooper also functions underwater, but its poor accuracy and limited detection range against most vehicles means it may not be very effective.
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2017-09-05, 09:20 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-09-05 09:29 PM by Normal69.)
Post: #29
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
(2017-09-05 08:31 PM)Richard Dastardly Wrote:  "trying to capture a lot of enemies" - well, there's your piles of resource. The campaign is balanced around not capturing stuff ( adventure mode, I have no idea ) - so much so that Nick & Majyst would like capturing removed but we all complain too much every time it's brought up.
...
It's also pretty goddamn hard to capture in godly battles when you're trying to stay at range...

Thank you for the interesting info!

On capturing: maybe you feel that I am not the type of calculating the best components - I play this game for freedom and fun.
And it is infinitely enjoyable to jump on enemy units, and try to find the AI. Smile
I was sad when NPC got deleted, yes, they've induced lag, but capturing was much more enjoyable with them. I hope they will return in some form, maybe a simple weapon anti-personnel turret, because I liked to dodge, and use cover to grenade them.
If we take out everything which induces lag, then we should remove units, and have a walking simulator on sea. Big Grin

For the other people here giving me pointers to evolve my building ability:
Yes, I know that you don't want to hurt me, my feelings, or my building style, just giving me useful info.
Yes, I feel that acting on your advices I will build better - but you overreacted, and began from a negative viewpoint, assuming the worst errors one can have.
Also I feel that you have the same abhorrence towards RTGs as I have against ammo makers. Big Grin
Don't worry, I have a certain good degree in unfuckwithability, and wont spend a night covering under the shower crying "why... why...". Big Grin
I just react to your plain words to provide feedback. Because if you were talking to me like that in real life, I would hit you with a stick. Wink
Use the emoticons more, that will convey more information beside dry text.
And remember, you are not my parents, and not my teachers, just advisors in a game I like a LOT. Smile
Even if you are intelligent, you can be more decent, and maybe that is a field you can evolve, like myself in engineering more effective units.

I am lazy, and have no interest in fighting you, because that is boring.
Lets enjoy together a great game which I imagined when I was 14! (now I am 45)

Peace. Wink

(and see my emoticons!)

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

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2017-09-05, 09:40 PM
Post: #30
RE: Alternative ways of getting power?
Here's an example of using laser rangefinders for active search since I was bored and wondered if it was indeed possible.


Attached File(s)
.blueprint  Laser Rangefinder Active Search.blueprint (Size: 48.46 KB / Downloads: 3)
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