Poll: Should AP Be Buffed?
AP Needs A Buff
AP Is Fine As Is
AP Should Be Nerfed
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Buff AP for Aps
2017-07-31, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-07-31 03:55 PM by moghopper.)
Post: #1
Buff AP for Aps
I think we need to buff the AP level of aps shells. With the new armor buffs most ap rounds have become substantially weaker.

I think as it stands, AP, Composite, and SABOT need their numbers tweaked in order to make them more viable than they are right now.

Composite shells need to have AP boosted to around where SABOT is right now. This will make it ideal for taking out armored battleships, and allow for effective pendepth shells that SABOT just cannot pull off.

AP needs to be a bit under where SABOT is. This would make it good for medium armor targets. Like above, this would allow for pendepth to be more useful.

SABOT, in my opinion, should get super high AP, but of course keep the payload reduction. It should be something you use for units with super heavy armor (like 3-4+ Heavy Armor Beams). It would make it good for doing SOMETHING to such ships, whereas AP and Composite would do little.

These changes would also be a boon to railguns, as the increased AP means that less power would be needed to increase velocity. This would free up power to spend on accuracy, and shell space to increase payload.

Now, I'm sure people will say that this will encourage the use of spam guns, but honestly, the new armor makes them mandatory for lower calbres. Even if this wasn't the case, people would spam them anyways. Better to have a good weapon system that encourages spamming, than a weak one that makes it obligatory.

Overall, I think this will make APS far more useful and balanced than it is currently.

Opinions?
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2017-07-31, 04:01 PM
Post: #2
RE: Buff AP for Aps
yes the AP of the standart AP head and Composite are a little to weak now, but not by that much, sabots still are fine if you design them right, AP and compisit head AP values should be buffed by ~25% in my opinnion

There is always a weak-spot if you search Hard enough.

If you fire enough AP at that shield, at some point you're going to come through.

There is no "best" I wouldn't even say there is anything universally good, Good is subjective, I find everything bad even if it's in theory good against this or that.
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2017-08-03, 02:24 PM
Post: #3
RE: Buff AP for Aps
Can we have some more people weigh in? I would like to here peoples thoughts.
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2017-08-03, 04:10 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-08-03 04:10 PM by draba.)
Post: #4
RE: Buff AP for Aps
No, the main point of 2.0 was to help out armor.
It'd be just silly to go ahead and buff APS damage of all things.

Also, kinetics are only useless because shields are specifically good against them for now.
For reference, if shields were removed there'd be no point in using HEAT/HESH since it's simpler to just kill/penetrate the same armor with kinetic.
  • Straight kinetic sabot/sabot/solid can already punch through 3m+ metal/1m HA, add some rail energy and it easily goes through all armor and and entire ship.
    Further buffing sabot would just encourage the old spam of 8/10 component sabot/sabot/solid.
  • Pendepth can already easily punch though a few meters of metal, with a largish rail draw all but the silliest armor(need stacked HA to stop it).
    You might argue that the recent pendepth buff wasn't enough, I think penetrations with 180° frag(or even HE) are so destructive that it was plenty.
  • AP head kinetic modifier was just buffed from 7.5 to 10, it does plenty against softer targets.
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2017-08-03, 05:04 PM
Post: #5
RE: Buff AP for Aps
(2017-08-03 04:10 PM)draba Wrote:  No, the main point of 2.0 was to help out armor.
It'd be just silly to go ahead and buff APS damage of all things.

Also, kinetics are only useless because shields are specifically good against them for now.
For reference, if shields were removed there'd be no point in using HEAT/HESH since it's simpler to just kill/penetrate the same armor with kinetic.
  • Straight kinetic sabot/sabot/solid can already punch through 3m+ metal/1m HA, add some rail energy and it easily goes through all armor and and entire ship.
    Further buffing sabot would just encourage the old spam of 8/10 component sabot/sabot/solid.
  • Pendepth can already easily punch though a few meters of metal, with a largish rail draw all but the silliest armor(need stacked HA to stop it).
    You might argue that the recent pendepth buff wasn't enough, I think penetrations with 180° frag(or even HE) are so destructive that it was plenty.
  • AP head kinetic modifier was just buffed from 7.5 to 10, it does plenty against softer targets.

1. Sabot renders Explosive and HE loads worthless.

2. We shouldn't have to rely on Railguns for penetration. They should be there to supplement AP and Damage without sacrificing payload.

3. AP/Composite are only really viable at larger calibres. Anything below 200 or so is worthless. We shouldn't have to mount ridiculous calibres to do damage. Ideally, things should be a bit closer to real life.

4. Stop with "it encourages spam" nonsense. EVERYTHING can and will be spammed regardless. The only reasonable way spam could be discouraged would be to put caps on fire rate. Which we all know will never be done. Make a weapon weaker versus something does not and never will decrease spam. It just makes people do it more.
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2017-08-03, 05:25 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-08-03 05:26 PM by Skyer.)
Post: #6
RE: Buff AP for Aps
draba HESH And shields dont do well HESH is absolutely useless agains shields since it uses armor to create fragments HESH would be used even more then

"2. We shouldn't have to rely on Railguns for penetration. They should be there to supplement AP and Damage without sacrificing payload."
Totaly Agree on that

There is always a weak-spot if you search Hard enough.

If you fire enough AP at that shield, at some point you're going to come through.

There is no "best" I wouldn't even say there is anything universally good, Good is subjective, I find everything bad even if it's in theory good against this or that.
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2017-08-03, 07:06 PM
Post: #7
RE: Buff AP for Aps
(2017-08-03 05:25 PM)Skyer Wrote:  draba HESH And shields dont do well HESH is absolutely useless agains shields since it uses armor to create fragments HESH would be used even more then

Kinetic is bad against shields because it needs velocity for both AP and damage.
A 250 m/s HESH shell has a decent chance to get through shields without losing any damage(beyond the worse hitrate).

(2017-08-03 05:04 PM)moghopper Wrote:  1. Sabot renders Explosive and HE loads worthless.
3. AP/Composite are only really viable at larger calibres. Anything below 200 or so is worthless. We shouldn't have to mount ridiculous calibres to do damage. Ideally, things should be a bit closer to real life.
4. Stop with "it encourages spam" nonsense. EVERYTHING can and will be spammed regardless. The only reasonable way spam could be discouraged would be to put caps on fire rate. Which we all know will never be done. Make a weapon weaker versus something does not and never will decrease spam. It just makes people do it more.

Seriously, where do you see explosive and HE(?) in "Straight kinetic sabot/sabot/solid"? Smile
"encourage the old spam of 8/10 component sabot/sabot/solid" as in "spamming sabot and nothing else on everything", not "shooting 2n shells instead of n"(again, reading comprehension).
Sabot/sabot/solid or AP/sabot/sabot already has the best chance of hitting and has the smallest LAMS interception rate, +is pretty close to HEAT/HESH against armor(much better against their worst cases).
Right now HESH looks halfway attractive and maybe even HEAT could be a decent alternative(not very keen on it myself).

8 module 125mm AP/sabot/sabot can comfortably kill a metal beam and do damage behind it.
I think peashooters being bad against metal/HA is reasonable, things are still easy enough to kill without making 250mm punch through decent armor(this game is not real life, <200mm is small).
Small shells are probably a bit on the weak side, but that's not a kinetic AP issue.

(2017-08-03 05:04 PM)moghopper Wrote:  2. We shouldn't have to rely on Railguns for penetration. They should be there to supplement AP and Damage without sacrificing payload.

Back that "We shouldn't" with some reasons.
I think that making plain old guns penetrating even the strongest armor leads to short alpha strike battles.
The first volley of 10 pendepth 180° frags got through armor? Now a good chunk is missing from your engines/LAMS/weapons and it's practically over.

If you need rails to get through 3m metal/2 HA it's at least a conscious choice:
- you can use 10 guns with any combination of HP/non-rail pendepth/kinetic/HEAT/HESH and try to grind them down
- or get 3-4 bigass railguns for the same cost and go for crippling hits

The long and short is, things are moving AWAY from being paper.
Armor not doing anything and bigass ships deciding the battle in less than a minute led to lots of (IMO legitimate)complaints.
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2017-08-03, 09:24 PM
Post: #8
RE: Buff AP for Aps
"If you need rails to get through 3m metal/2 HA it's at least a conscious choice:
- you can use 10 guns with any combination of HP/non-rail pendepth/kinetic/HEAT/HESH and try to grind them down
- or get 3-4 bigass railguns for the same cost and go for crippling hits"
Ok that does make sense

There is always a weak-spot if you search Hard enough.

If you fire enough AP at that shield, at some point you're going to come through.

There is no "best" I wouldn't even say there is anything universally good, Good is subjective, I find everything bad even if it's in theory good against this or that.
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2017-08-04, 05:38 AM
Post: #9
RE: Buff AP for Aps
AP, as it stands, is by no means unusable - sub 250mm, AP and sabot shells become more potent than their HEAT and HESH counterparts.
Shields are by far the biggest concern when it comes to the potency of AP, and apparently that's being rebalanced soon. With so much change regarding shields incoming, buffing or nerfing AP would be a little preposterous.

At last, a great success!
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2017-08-07, 03:56 AM
Post: #10
RE: Buff AP for Aps
Have to agree the whole point of the recent changes was to reduce the 'paper armor' Battles should feel like slugging fests. However, i have to agree that for some shells, Namely Frags and anything relying on fuses, the new bounce mechanic is cancer. Buffs to armor and damage is good, Nerf to damage good, but i'm sick of everything bouncing especially since we have multiple campaign factions that don't use fuses by rule and metal is easily accessible.

-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.
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