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Small guns and Misslies
2017-08-12, 09:58 PM
Post: #1
Small guns and Misslies
I would put this in the suggestions thread but I kinda wanted to just get a pulse of what others think and if i'm perhaps out of touch but i've noticed that since the defense patch, while the health of the game relative to large weapons has improved (no paper armor) the health of small weapons has degraded terribly. in particular, they're suffering heavily from shields + armor + bounce + separate damage nerfs.


In particular:

Missiles, only really have one viable warhead, frags, Emp does too little and with HA is now too easy to dissipate. HE is good underwater, but that only applies to subs and ships, so while torps are fairly healthy missiles as a whole are not.

The root of the problem here, is not that stuff got buffed armor/hp wise, we needed that. It's also not that frags received nerfs to narrow cone, we needed that too. The issue i'm seeing is that frags cannot handle the new higher AC of everything. Even wood hulls are bouncing close to 1/2 the fragments of a missile hitting at an angle. relatively simple hulls of 2 layers metal/alloy bounce 75%. What do you guys think?

In the Army we expect that leaders supply solutions to go with identified problems so here are some suggestions that could do well alone or with several together.

-A blanket (and significant) buff to AC would help solve the issue. Current AC is 6 IIRC. I would recommend increasing this to 12 or 18 and changing frag damage (.66-3 as of patch 2.01) to (.5-3). Since all blocks just received an AC/HP buff and the armor stacking was increased in addition to a nerf to frag damage at low angles this should not create a situation where everything is paper armor again but should reduce the bounce.

-modify the formula governing bounce so that it's less harsh, this would also help out small projectiles.

-allow us to modify frag shells and warheads. Much like HEAT can choose to have high penetration or high particle counts it would be nice if we could choose to design frags with higher penetration for punching holes and frags with high damage for wrecking systems past the armor. This would make missiles a little more interesting then the current 'add more warheads'

Small shells are suffering much as missiles are. all small shells struggle to penetrate any amount of armor. Low guage HEAT and HESH can't generate the metric to pierce 2 layer wood/metal, allow/metal, or metal/metal which is fairly light. This means that light ships cannot even damage each other reliably, and of course have essentially no ability to damage larger ships, even in numbers. Kinetic small shells and unfused explosives are similarly suffering from stupidly high % of bounced shells


Suggestions:

-Once again, modify the bounce formula. The biggest issue i'm again seeing is that the shells do OK damage when they hit The issue is they're not getting a chance to hit because the bounce formula was written for first-layer AC values that were basically half what they are now.

-increase the AP metric of small shells, and their effects (like HESH, HEAT, Frag effects) however it should be done in such a way that it does not also increase the AP of larger shells. The idea is not to introduce a blanket buff that puts us back where we were. We simply need an increase so shells do a meaningful amount.

-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.
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2017-08-12, 10:11 PM
Post: #2
RE: Small guns and Misslies
Designing very specific frag types irl is really hard since its just the outer shell riped apart frags are bad at penetrating armor and im fine that small shells dond do much because you can get very high rates of fire (i managex to make relatiy small 12k rpm 18mm gun with hollow point just ate through everythin.

But i agree that the bounce formula sometimes is a litle silly.

I agree that missiles are a litle to weak now.

There is always a weak-spot if you search Hard enough.

If you fire enough AP at that shield, at some point you're going to come through.

There is no "best" I wouldn't even say there is anything universally good, Good is subjective, I find everything bad even if it's in theory good against this or that.
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2017-08-12, 10:22 PM (This post was last modified: 2017-08-12 10:30 PM by Lincrono.)
Post: #3
RE: Small guns and Misslies
(2017-08-12 10:11 PM)Skyer Wrote:  Designing very specific frag types irl is really hard since its just the outer shell riped apart frags are bad at penetrating armor and im fine that small shells dond do much because you can get very high rates of fire (i managex to make relatiy small 12k rpm 18mm gun with hollow point just ate through everythin.

But i agree that the bounce formula sometimes is a litle silly.

I agree that missiles are a litle to weak now.

IRL very specific types of frags are actually a subset of shaped charges where instead of a stream of super-heated metal they generate an armor-piercing slug. They're called 'explosively formed perpetrators' and they come in single and multiple (ie frag) varieties. Since infantry and thin-skinned vehicles are the primary targets for frags . . . and since neither of them exist in this game, it's not appropriate to limit frags to their RL effectiveness and doing so has gutted an entire weapon subset (missiles). It would be like including 7.62mm MGs in the game and then having them do 0 damage because that's what they'd do realistically to 1m of metal, wood, or stone.

out of interest what was the 18mm MG like? i've built similar weapons, but they tend to do nothing against shields. i'm not suggesting to buff small weapons and missiles to insane levels. but they currently perform too far below the average.

-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.
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2017-08-13, 07:08 AM
Post: #4
RE: Small guns and Misslies
Wood & alloy count as "thin-skinned" as far as I'm concerned. I moaned at some length about frag changes before it went live, my position hasn't changed & is deepened by the lack of shield changes ( unfortunately I think those should happen before any rework of offense ). I don't however support an arbitrary buff to specific damage types at low gauge - if there's going to be a change in scaling then make it the same scaling for *everything*. Arbitrary changes rather than physics-based changes in a system designed around physics eventually disintegrate into a mess & at some point there'd be another complete rework of the system to clean it up.

I do support some rescaling - I do have a 146mm gun firing some 2m HEAT shells, but they're laughably bad & they really shouldn't be *that* bad. I would think rescaling HE & EMP effectiveness for shell heads up & then soft-capping it ( I can't imagine you could efficiently build arbitrarily large speciality shells anyway, the casings for really long ones would be insanely thick ) might be somewhere to go.

Poke my boat! mostly pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - Heavy & light tanks 18/11/17. 6 ships made 2.0 aware. If it's not AotE I can't do it regularily - sea -> post processing -> eyestrain.
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2017-08-13, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 2017-08-13 08:56 AM by Skyer.)
Post: #5
RE: Small guns and Misslies
(2017-08-12 10:22 PM)Lincrono Wrote:  out of interest what was the 18mm MG like? i've built similar weapons, but they tend to do nothing against shields. i'm not suggesting to buff small weapons and missiles to insane levels. but they currently perform too far below the average.

I didnt do much testing with it but weak shields and non shielded were just pepered to death by 94dmg per shot
(the gun was beltfed)
Hollow points work great on small guns
From about40mm HESH becomes a viable option

There is always a weak-spot if you search Hard enough.

If you fire enough AP at that shield, at some point you're going to come through.

There is no "best" I wouldn't even say there is anything universally good, Good is subjective, I find everything bad even if it's in theory good against this or that.
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2017-08-14, 02:46 PM
Post: #6
RE: Small guns and Misslies
So, quick technical note, but bounces don't hurt your damage at all. The frag still deals whatever damage it is supposed to do. It just loses less damage potential and changes direction.

Frag AP to 12 would be nuts. That's a 100% damage buff against anything ac6 or higher. For reference, my old mod that concentrated frags (20*250 instead of 50*100) and increased their AP just to 10 had them shredding ships.
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2017-08-14, 06:15 PM
Post: #7
RE: Small guns and Misslies
(2017-08-14 02:46 PM)Dahak Wrote:  So, quick technical note, but bounces don't hurt your damage at all. The frag still deals whatever damage it is supposed to do. It just loses less damage potential and changes direction.

Frag AP to 12 would be nuts. That's a 100% damage buff against anything ac6 or higher. For reference, my old mod that concentrated frags (20*250 instead of 50*100) and increased their AP just to 10 had them shredding ships.

A shell that bounces has, by nature, not expended it's damage potential and therefore represents a damage loss because the damage is dependent on Cos(theta). When upwards of 90% of your projectiles are bouncing that adds up to a significant number especially if the rounds are unfused explosives, like those used by the first two game factions.

You're example is also not representative of what i'm suggesting. your mod that 'concentrates' the frag leaves them with the same total damage (20*250 = 50*100 = 5000) while buffing the AC and ships were already shredded by frags at 6 AP. One of my suggestions involves buffing AC while lowering the damage somewhat (to reduce tight-cone dominance). Other suggestions merely target the bounce mechanic itself.

-Do not bring forth an argument as fact that can be disproven with a 10 minute Google search.
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2017-08-15, 09:41 AM
Post: #8
RE: Small guns and Misslies
I do not like to calculate, rather trying out ideas in the designer and the campaign.
This is my current solution: https://youtu.be/9Rf-vj5Tq4Y?list=PLImar...a73&t=1110

From the Depths english playlist starts here, before that it's hungarian:
https://youtu.be/Ltdx0yVI9cA?list=PLImar...ZokVtdBa73

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2017-08-15, 09:57 AM
Post: #9
RE: Small guns and Misslies
(2017-08-12 09:58 PM)Lincrono Wrote:  Missiles, only really have one viable warhead, frags, Emp does too little and with HA is now too easy to dissipate.

About that particular point (which is 99% true, I saw that EMP torpedoes work well against most sub, as it fries their ACBs and they lost depth control), I'd like to say that the fact that HA absorbs EMP is a problem.

I think that HA should enhance EMP instead of absorb it.
That would have the opposite effect, HA would become a problem facing EMP, which would force us to insulate the key components.

Of course, there's still the problem of EMP pathing limited to 1000 blocks.
But that could probably be fixed by optimizing a bit the algorithm and calculating EMP travel over several frames.


So, missiles could be a way to deliver EMP strike through shields, other than the disruptor.
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2017-08-15, 06:13 PM
Post: #10
RE: Small guns and Misslies
Seawater is somewhat conductive so it works as an earth, so presumably HA is meant to drain charge faster by providing a better path. What might work is if it only absorbs EMP if there's a clear path to the water, otherwise it *stores* charge & eventually starts arcing across airgaps. Sounds a bit complex, though, for something so easily negated.

Poke my boat! mostly pre-2.0 learning & catalogue thread - Heavy & light tanks 18/11/17. 6 ships made 2.0 aware. If it's not AotE I can't do it regularily - sea -> post processing -> eyestrain.
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