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Full Version: The Anocibar Class Cruiser *new model 2*
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Today I present the Model 2 Anocibar Class, a complete improvement. With heavier guns, missiles, torps and light anti missile defense. And is actually slightly cheaper to make and better armor layout.
[attachment=47237]

[attachment=47236]
Hello, and Welcome to the forums! I'll take a more in depth look later, but at a glance it looks quite nice. It packs quite a punch too, but I noticed from the pics that you have a keel on it. Keels are huge vulnerabilities and also create massive amounts of drag. I would advise you to cut it off and replace it with a general purpose PID (in the control tab) and downward facing roll propellers. Otherwise it seems like a pretty solid ship.
(2017-09-11 06:14 AM)ds332a Wrote: [ -> ]Hello, and Welcome to the forums! I'll take a more in depth look later, but at a glance it looks quite nice. It packs quite a punch too, but I noticed from the pics that you have a keel on it. Keels are huge vulnerabilities and also create massive amounts of drag. I would advise you to cut it off and replace it with a general purpose PID (in the control tab) and downward facing roll propellers. Otherwise it seems like a pretty solid ship.

Thank you, I happily await your review.
i've played around with it some I'll break my review and tips for a better build down into sections, hopefully that will make the length more tolerable.

I'll open with this, you seem fairly new and this seems like a fairly new build. If that's the case you're starting better off than I did. my first designs were rather sad wooden trimarans and I remember very distinctly going at it for about 100 hours before anything i built could take on a DWG shuriken. I say this because i'm gonna be offering tips on virtually every part of this vessel and i don't want it to seem like just a general 'git gud' piece.


Structure: Overall, for a new vessel, the structure of this vessel is O.K. but it could be improved in the following ways.

-Draft: this ship has a very shallow draft for a 'cruiser' it actually reminds me more of the old river ironclads. In fact, the reason you need that keel is because too much of the ship's weight is at the top while the bottom is very lightly armored, very buoyant, and very shallow. More armor, a wider or longer hull, and probably a much shorter superstructure would help stabilize it.

-Keel: you should never build a ship with a massive weighted keel. It's a sign that you're building a poorly stabilized vessel, and often it's much better to simply add armor, or expand the hull to gain stability AND more space for weapons/more durability than it is to 'fix' the problem with a keel. Keels hurt you in two main ways. They are a big vulnerable point; if cut the vessel is crippled. They also rob your speed. As you build bigger, better, and more crazy you'll find that even well-built vessels can be destabilized by the needed armor, desired shape, or the big guns. In that case it's always better to utilize active stabilization with thrusters.

-Internal structure: The internals of this ship are way too open. You need to divide the internals. In particular I always have a separate layer of armor (called a barrette) around each cannon. This protects the weapon from errant fragments and when the main armor is penetrated. Currently, almost any penetration of the outer armor will detonate one of your cannons. Internal walls protect the main ship from explosions of the cannons (but they cannot protect other cannons, because 'sub-constructs' calculate damage in an odd way). Internal walls also allow the ship to be penetrated and not lose all it's buoyancy, right now half the ship floods if you penetrate the hull.


-Armor: The armor is too light for a cruiser. 1m steel backed with 1m wood is OK, but it can't take a sustained pounding. You also have a torpedo bulge that actually weakens the ship. It's hollow, which is realistic, but doesn't work in FTDs, in FTDs you want them solid (to maximize armor stacking) OR you want them to have so much hollow space that they keep the explosion too far away to damage the main ship. this is generally so far away that it robs speed AND makes the ship comically large. Your torpedo bulge also has explosives in it, I found this actually boosted the damage my ships were doing in several cases. Finally the torpedo bulge is too small, it should really go all the way to the surface of the water. Lastly, the alloy bottom is only 1m thick, torpedo hits to the bottom are devastating.

Weapons:
Some general tips:
Don't mix ammo types unless you do the following:
-make sure the shells have very similar speeds (otherwise you hurt the AI's ability to track targets)
-make sure all the guns in a turret are firing the same shell at the same time. Again this is generally to help the AI target, the one exception to this is when you are trying to use disruptor shells. These shells are generally best used when fired from the same cannon or from a cannon attached to the main cannon (in the same turret) to make sure they are hitting the same shield. However, if the disruptor shells are much slower than the main shells you can again have pretty significant issues.
-have multiple weapon systems. Your ship has room for missiles, torpedoes, even light energy weapons. Having multiple weapon types makes you harder to counter.

Issues with your weapons:
-you are using very short shells but you don't have rapid-fire cannons. Generally if you are using short shells you want to be spitting them out at a very high rate of fire. Otherwise you need longer, more powerful shells.
-you have an imbalance of coolers to loaders. The most efficient cannons have enough coolers so that the loaders can load at maximum speed OR they have just enough loaders to load no faster than the weapon can cool. If you have too many of either you're just building a gun that's larger and more expensive than it needs to be or you could be using that extra space to make the gun better (more recoil dampers, maybe railgun components, etc)
-you need to set hard limits on the guns, they shoot the ship in a lot of cases
-the small autocannon (6-barrel) has issues with picking up a target
-your cannons are too close together, If one main gun detonates the other will also detonate, even if you put a wall between them (because of the way the game calculates explosions, this is a flaw that causes a lot of grief). If you want the cannons to survive explosions from other cannons that are close by, you have to have the armor on the cannon.

Shields: it's a pain to set up, but multiple layers of low strength shields are better than a single strong layer, they also take less power. This may change when shields get balanced, but even if they are it's a simple matter of changing the settings. You also can't rely on 'side wall' shields, you need top coverage to protect against shells that come in at an angle as most do when fighting heavy cannons or at long range most of my ships have at least 2 layers of 3-4 strength shields.

Engine: injector engines are currently the worst type. if you need that much power a steam engine is better otherwise a good piped turbo engine is the way to go

unused power: unless you actually have multiple engines and you are leaving one or more unused so it can be a backup you generally want to use all the power you produce, especially since most engines are more efficient when operating at max load. you have power to support more shields, more propellers, or a light LAMs system.
(2017-09-17 09:30 AM)Lincrono Wrote: [ -> ]i've played around with it some I'll break my review and tips for a better build down into sections, hopefully that will make the length more tolerable.

I'll open with this, you seem fairly new and this seems like a fairly new build. If that's the case you're starting better off than I did. my first designs were rather sad wooden trimarans and I remember very distinctly going at it for about 100 hours before anything i built could take on a DWG shuriken. I say this because i'm gonna be offering tips on virtually every part of this vessel and i don't want it to seem like just a general 'git gud' piece.


Structure: Overall, for a new vessel, the structure of this vessel is O.K. but it could be improved in the following ways.

-Draft: this ship has a very shallow draft for a 'cruiser' it actually reminds me more of the old river ironclads. In fact, the reason you need that keel is because too much of the ship's weight is at the top while the bottom is very lightly armored, very buoyant, and very shallow. More armor, a wider or longer hull, and probably a much shorter superstructure would help stabilize it.

-Keel: you should never build a ship with a massive weighted keel. It's a sign that you're building a poorly stabilized vessel, and often it's much better to simply add armor, or expand the hull to gain stability AND more space for weapons/more durability than it is to 'fix' the problem with a keel. Keels hurt you in two main ways. They are a big vulnerable point; if cut the vessel is crippled. They also rob your speed. As you build bigger, better, and more crazy you'll find that even well-built vessels can be destabilized by the needed armor, desired shape, or the big guns. In that case it's always better to utilize active stabilization with thrusters.

-Internal structure: The internals of this ship are way too open. You need to divide the internals. In particular I always have a separate layer of armor (called a barrette) around each cannon. This protects the weapon from errant fragments and when the main armor is penetrated. Currently, almost any penetration of the outer armor will detonate one of your cannons. Internal walls protect the main ship from explosions of the cannons (but they cannot protect other cannons, because 'sub-constructs' calculate damage in an odd way). Internal walls also allow the ship to be penetrated and not lose all it's buoyancy, right now half the ship floods if you penetrate the hull.


-Armor: The armor is too light for a cruiser. 1m steel backed with 1m wood is OK, but it can't take a sustained pounding. You also have a torpedo bulge that actually weakens the ship. It's hollow, which is realistic, but doesn't work in FTDs, in FTDs you want them solid (to maximize armor stacking) OR you want them to have so much hollow space that they keep the explosion too far away to damage the main ship. this is generally so far away that it robs speed AND makes the ship comically large. Your torpedo bulge also has explosives in it, I found this actually boosted the damage my ships were doing in several cases. Finally the torpedo bulge is too small, it should really go all the way to the surface of the water. Lastly, the alloy bottom is only 1m thick, torpedo hits to the bottom are devastating.

Weapons:
Some general tips:
Don't mix ammo types unless you do the following:
-make sure the shells have very similar speeds (otherwise you hurt the AI's ability to track targets)
-make sure all the guns in a turret are firing the same shell at the same time. Again this is generally to help the AI target, the one exception to this is when you are trying to use disruptor shells. These shells are generally best used when fired from the same cannon or from a cannon attached to the main cannon (in the same turret) to make sure they are hitting the same shield. However, if the disruptor shells are much slower than the main shells you can again have pretty significant issues.
-have multiple weapon systems. Your ship has room for missiles, torpedoes, even light energy weapons. Having multiple weapon types makes you harder to counter.

Issues with your weapons:
-you are using very short shells but you don't have rapid-fire cannons. Generally if you are using short shells you want to be spitting them out at a very high rate of fire. Otherwise you need longer, more powerful shells.
-you have an imbalance of coolers to loaders. The most efficient cannons have enough coolers so that the loaders can load at maximum speed OR they have just enough loaders to load no faster than the weapon can cool. If you have too many of either you're just building a gun that's larger and more expensive than it needs to be or you could be using that extra space to make the gun better (more recoil dampers, maybe railgun components, etc)
-you need to set hard limits on the guns, they shoot the ship in a lot of cases
-the small autocannon (6-barrel) has issues with picking up a target
-your cannons are too close together, If one main gun detonates the other will also detonate, even if you put a wall between them (because of the way the game calculates explosions, this is a flaw that causes a lot of grief). If you want the cannons to survive explosions from other cannons that are close by, you have to have the armor on the cannon.

Shields: it's a pain to set up, but multiple layers of low strength shields are better than a single strong layer, they also take less power. This may change when shields get balanced, but even if they are it's a simple matter of changing the settings. You also can't rely on 'side wall' shields, you need top coverage to protect against shells that come in at an angle as most do when fighting heavy cannons or at long range most of my ships have at least 2 layers of 3-4 strength shields.

Engine: injector engines are currently the worst type. if you need that much power a steam engine is better otherwise a good piped turbo engine is the way to go

unused power: unless you actually have multiple engines and you are leaving one or more unused so it can be a backup you generally want to use all the power you produce, especially since most engines are more efficient when operating at max load. you have power to support more shields, more propellers, or a light LAMs system.

Wow, im actually very happy with the review and tips, ill see what i can do about retrofitting the ship. Ill take this in mind and see what i can do. And yes im sorta new, in FTD terms at least.
To add to Lincrono's notes:

* using alloy to back your metal outer skin instead of wood will mean the boat is even more bouyant and has considerably better armour.
* Build the superstructure out of alloy
* You need an inner layer of armour behind an air-gap; HEAT rounds trigger their second mechanic at the back of a combined armour layer, and so do HESH, and HESH is currently very nasty; right now a HESH round will hit your hull and then spawn a shower of fragments inside the hull, and there's zero defense.
* Put turrets on a HA beam, that way HE blast is less likely to wipe the deck under the turret away. I would line the bottom of a turret well with metal, at least.
* Tune your sensors - because there's rangefinders in use they've skewed the sensor weighting ( they go up to 6.25 with a limit of 2.00... )
* You need some missile defence even if it's just flares & bouys.
* Learn a bit of turret tetris - the easiest way is to build an outline of your available space on a deck somewhere and then fill it with a layer of your turret, eg:
[Image: 36457666463_f63aa2eb35_c.jpg]
( there's gaps between the loaders there because it was to be a two-gun turret & the gauge snake used that gap ).

I'd debate injector engines are the worst, especially if you have some decent refineries - their base fuel consumption is about 3x of a steam engine I think? but that's only if you buy boxes of fuel - you don't need much of a refinery to be more than 3x as efficient converting RP to fuel. Still, you only want injectors ( or even steam engines ) if you really need that power density.

Here's your roll PID setup - use the GP PID block from the control tab.
[Image: 37139496961_a62b772c57_c.jpg]

If it still heels over a bit too much when you're firing broadside then turn the gain up a little, gently. If you remove the keel you'll find you don't need that prop at the bow anymore - rememeber props cause a lot of drag, so you want a streamlined prop housing for any exposed props. The rear props are OK because the ship already blanks them when you're going forwards.
Richard makes some good points, especially about the fuel engines. If you capture fuel (by capturing an enemy with fuel and then transferring it, or you have a good refinery you can indeed run an injector engine for free or for much cheaper than steam.)

I can also confirm that alloy layers and an alloy structure are solid choices, all my ships have an alloy outer armor layer (for bouyancy and ablative armor) and use a mix of steel, HA, Alloy internal walls.

I've got another few points about mixing shells. there is another way that involves allowing cannons to independently target. If i remember correctly you need a weapon controller for the turret, and then another controller direly under each firing piece. the turret controller works normally, pointing the turret, but the other controllers, becasue they are closer, override the commands of the first and will allow each cannon to aim it's gun barrels differently to get the correct range. This method still struggles against fast, evasive vehicles, but it will at least let heavy guns target correctly most of the time. It also makes the guns more resistant to damage as each gun will correct for it's own level of barrel damage (I believe, haven't' tested this last part)
So what i believe im gonna do with all this new knowledge in mind, is probably make a whole new vessel, a spiritual successor to this vessel. Ill post it here when Complete and see what you guys think.
Oops, completely forgot about this thread Confused sorry about that. It seems however that in my absence Lincrono and Richard covered all of the basic points I was trying to get across, so I guess it turned out well in the end. In any case, please accept my sincere apology.
(2017-09-18 12:07 AM)ds332a Wrote: [ -> ]Oops, completely forgot about this thread Confused sorry about that. It seems however that in my absence Lincrono and Richard covered all of the basic points I was trying to get across, so I guess it turned out well in the end. In any case, please accept my sincere apology.

No harm done, but do keep an eye out for when i post the 2nd model
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